No Fire Hydrant

[the1141man]

My questions are....

If you have a house fire in an area with no hydrants and you have to do drafting, Do you know this before arrival?

Yep. If it's in our first-due, we know there're no hydrants. However, static water sources are plentiful during the spring thru fall, it's just a matter of knowing where the nearest good draft point is, and that comes with knowing your first-due territory. Just for emphasis: that comes with knowing your first-due. If you don't, learn. Fast.

Do you look at your map and see that there are no hydrants and call this in for help before you are there? Not enough time cause your gearing up? Who would call this in and when?

Well, like I said--we already know going into our first-due that there're no hydrants, as do the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th due units incoming.

Are you suppose to arrive in the engine truck, do what you can, then set up for the tanker to come? Again manpower. We have an issue with manpower here! Only one truck leaves, usually, until further info is given.

If a witness-reported structure, you should be rolling far more than one engine. I could see one engine and other units standing by for an AFA with no witness or passer-by reports (one engine hot response with others rolling cold would be better but hey), but for a reported structure, you need a lot more than just one engine.
Our typical structure response is 4 heavy Engines (what easterners would call "pumper-tankers") with 2,000+ gals each onboard.

How long does it take to set up the drafting? I watched a few vidoes on drafting. Guess it depends on how many guys are there and how long before the Tanker shows up? Could be busy fighting the fire?

Assuming one or two personnel manning an apparatus, our standard for a drafting evolution to begin (from arrival at draft point to water coming in the intake) is 3 minutes.

We are paid and volly.

I know depending on who is there and who shows up plays alot into these questions for a small town. Unfortunetly we don't operate 4 man to a truck. We have 2 or 3 paid on 24/48 shifts and we depend on vollies.

Our station operates 1 paid guy at a time (either an Engineer-LT or the Captain), as does one of our neighboring stations--the other is either 2 FAE or FAE/CPT staffing. You have it good, trust me.
If we're "lucky", the "big ones" come in during a company training/business meeting...we're rarely lucky, though.

If it was done right, Tell me what happens from the time you leave the firehouse till the time you pack up, what you would do. I am not criticing the IC or the brothers here in my town. I just want to know how to do it right when or if it happens to me. We have had this happen and it concerns me.

Assuming a 2-man response on the Engine (aside from the Truck, only one Engine in the entire county is equipped to accomodate more than 3 people at all, though on any other Engine, 3 is a real squish):
*tones drop along with initial dispatch* If you're not familiar with the address/location, look on the wall map (complete with addresses, too) and find where you're going, pick a good route. Jump in structure gear, throw wildland gear in a compartment, get in Engine. Go enroute on the radio. Consider what was reported in the initial dispatch--our dispatchers are pretty good about giving whatever info they can get out of an RP... is this a dryer fire in the detached garage? Is it a room and contents fire? Or is the structure pretty well involved? Discuss tactics and formulate an initial game-plan based upon what info you have so far and your knowledge of the area, local building construction, specific knowledge of the building (if pre-planned/target hazard), etc.
Arrive on-scene, Engineer/Captain gives intial radio report and quick size-up, requests/cancels additional resources, sets pump in gear, and quickly interviews witnesses/victims, begins 360 if no immediate rescue situation. Firefighter pulls pre-connect and soft-charges, sets throttle and relief valve for correct discharge pressure per SOG and individual apparatus specs (assuming sufficient seniority and training). If an immediate rescue situation, Firefighter and Engineer pack up and make entry with preconnected hoseline to begin search for victims.
If no immediate rescue situation, begin indirect exterior attack (if possible) until sufficient resources are on-scene to establish 2-in/2-out rule. Once 2/2 rule is in-place, begin interior operations if ranking officer on-scene determines it is safe to do so.

[FJ40Dave]

Short & Sweet:

I roll my Engine & Tender (750 & 2,500 each) to anything burning.

If I know the vollys or residents will bring my other tender - bonus.
If not, and it's a worker - I'll ask for more from my neighbors.

Wildland, or extended ops - I'll set up a (portable) drafting tank.

And.........

Assign a Water Supply Officer to take care of that side of the equasion.

At the city job I had before this one - never saw a tender - we had a hydrant every 250'.
Now, the more rural job I have (and love) - hydrants are a bonus feature, and who out there can't say they arn't a little more reassured when they know they got 2500 gallons just sittin on blacktop 200' from the engine!

Dave Alberts
MCFD2
Capt/PM

PS: Melissa.....ask away, do not hesitate to inquire about something you don't know about......just ignore the replys that are less than informative and/or offered in a less than kind manner - "they" have nothing to offer anyone.

[FlyingKiwi]

There is only one Fire Hydrant in this area, at the local explosives dump.

Also all the houses are on roof run off tank water.

We made a U bend of 4" pipe with the appropriate fittings for our suction.

2 Guys can hook three lengths of suction to one end, one length to the other.

Throw a ladder against the water tank and drop in the single length.

Fire up the protable pump and "viola", instant 4 to 6,000 gallons of local water supply. right on the fires doorstep.

If the fire is in a more built up area, you can use the neighbours as well if things get tight.

All this is done with the knowledge that within about 10 minutes, second due will arrive, and after 1/2 an hour you will have 1 or 2 more pumps, and da big tanker.

We have been known to slap the suction in the neighbours pool before.

the bend has a short side of around 1 foot length, then angles of for about 4 feet at around 20 degrees above the horizontal, last length of about 2 foot length.

We have had this running within 4 minutes of arrival at a fire, feeding through a controlled dividing breach (wye), set up first with 2 lengths of 2 1/2 on one side, with a further 2 added to boost flow later.

It goes into all sorts of places.

[firetruckred]

You all know it's all about Trust.

If someone doesn't know you are a trustworthy individual because they never met you, they speculate why you would want to know information. To me in my willingness to want to learn, I just want to know the "How to" to them it's "why and for what reason you'll get to it when you get to it".

I can read all the FF manuals and SOP's we have but when it comes down to it and it's the real deal...What did they do right and wrong? What do you guys do? Are they trained properly? How can we improve?

Good job for doing it right, slap on the wrist (or more) for doing it wrong.

I have no place saying any of what I just said as far as I am concerned but it does not stop me from thinking it and wanting to help.

I am here to help not hurt. I know it is more than just a few mistakes made that they are concerned about.

"This here is the South and in the South a Lady has her place, now you don't worry your pretty little head about these issues". Please, spare me. As far as some, but not all, are concerned I am not suppose to be smart, aggressive and outspoken. Oh well. Sorry, I am not registered for the Barbie of the year award. I don't practice my Barbie wave and have my lipstick handy at all times in case the Jones stop over to visit. Ok...I will calm down now.

On a happier note.....

I am off to a FF summer cookout. I mean...a Ho down in the country with some brothers and sisters from the Fire Service! I made homemade brownies too! : )

Have a great day all and relax, it's all good.

Red

[firetruckred]

Melissa,

It's possible, based on what you've eluded to earlier, that there were some big mistakes made on that fire and several people may be still in "pucker mode" as they wait to find out what the final outcome will be for them. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but it would help to explain why there is tension whenever the subject is brought up.
If that isn't the case, your questions to them shouldn't be seen as stirring the pot, but simply as wanting to learn.

I can understand your interest and concern for wanting to know the proper tactics for any given call, and I commend you for it. If you don't understand something, keep asking questions! That is the only way you will learn.

I see many new hires that are afraid to ask the when, where, why and hows for fear of looking stupid. Instead, they wait until they're in a situation where it's too late. Then they really will look stupid, or worse yet, endanger someone.
The old saying "The only stupid question is the one not asked." is especially true of emergency services.

Does your department have written SOPs or SOGs that you can refer to (they should) for what should be done in a situation like you encountered. That would be an excellent resource to answer tactical questions with regard to how to establish water supply, and what the unit assignments and duties should be. Compare them with what you saw and you might have a lot more insight into what went on (and possibly, what went wrong).

Keep asking questions if there is ANYTHING you don't understand! The time you stop learning in this job is when you retire. Anyone that tells you differently is an idiot!




Kevin

Yes it is possible people are upset because they made mistakes on the big one. I didn't know it was the one of the Big ones. I am trying to learn the history (on fires) now but there isn't much info.

It wasn't my Dept that responded.

We live in a county where everyone knows every one. Most grew up with each together. I know some important people here and my interest in trying to understand how the city functions is misunderstood (by some, which is normal) cause I am new. The heat is coming for a few important individuals that have the power to say and do. My brothers are actually trying to sort things out for me as they have clout. It's getting smaller and smaller here in this quaint town. It is nothing more than immature BS and small town politics....maybe.

I can't say what happeneed. I am sure people are embarressed. I guess "some" were not prepared and ofcourse all suffer for it. There are really great guys here but a few messed up and heads roll when mistakes are made. All I wanted to now was how it should have happened. How can we do this better next time. It's called Preparation meeting Opportunity = Success.


Melissa

PS Kevin,

Your advice is really great and I appreciate it more than you know. I have so many things I would like to say and shoot you straight about but I can't. Thanks for being there to answer my questions.

[sklump]

I guess we have it simple, we have no hydrants. We can not take the wrong truck, but your trucks should be set up to draft. Our engine responds, starts attack, tanker responds sets up dump tank, preconnected suction goes in from engine, tanker dumps and goes to get filled, at fill site. comes back and dumps. If it is a known structure fire, mutual aid for more tankers.

[ntmd8r38]

Before you ever hook a pumper to a hydrant you better know if you can, in our small town hydrants are used for filling tankers only, the mains are only 4" and would never supply our pumper at full operating capacity. Check with the guys in the water dept. thay likely can give you a map that shows all hydrant locations along with flow rates.

[fireman4949]

Thank you Dickey. Funny I replied in the last post before I read your post.

As I stated before I have some wonderful friends. They are not just good weather friends. Most have been with me since the beginning of my goal to become a FF, and some before I even had the notion. They are truly brothers/sisters. I can't say enough about them. They have my back. Some I have met recently (a few months ago) that are highly trained individuals. I love listening about their calls and experiences on the job. Not a day goes by that I don't get a phone call, email or IM from someone in the fire service. One of my girlfriends is a LT., she is also a dispatcher. She is good friend to me. She does not live near me but we communicate often, as much as we talk on IM I feel like she is here with me sometimes through her advice, watching over me like a Big Sister. As for my FF Friends... I appreciate their knowledge, experience, friendship, honesty, realness and humor. I am truly blessed.

I just need to start asking questions.

Things have just gotten a little sticky around here.

Those that know me know my intentions and my heart and some that don't just like to make problems and assume your causing trouble by asking. Lately I fear it may have cost me to be so interested. Small town. Good 'Ole Boy System. People gossip and you know how it goes, if one FD knows they will all know it in three days. Count on it.

Melissa

Melissa,

It's possible, based on what you've eluded to earlier, that there were some big mistakes made on that fire and several people may be still in "pucker mode" as they wait to find out what the final outcome will be for them. I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but it would help to explain why there is tension whenever the subject is brought up.
If that isn't the case, your questions to them shouldn't be seen as stirring the pot, but simply as wanting to learn.

I can understand your interest and concern for wanting to know the proper tactics for any given call, and I commend you for it. If you don't understand something, keep asking questions! That is the only way you will learn.

I see many new hires that are afraid to ask the when, where, why and hows for fear of looking stupid. Instead, they wait until they're in a situation where it's too late. Then they really will look stupid, or worse yet, endanger someone.
The old saying "The only stupid question is the one not asked." is especially true of emergency services.

Does your department have written SOPs or SOGs that you can refer to (they should) for what should be done in a situation like you encountered. That would be an excellent resource to answer tactical questions with regard to how to establish water supply, and what the unit assignments and duties should be. Compare them with what you saw and you might have a lot more insight into what went on (and possibly, what went wrong).

Keep asking questions if there is ANYTHING you don't understand! The time you stop learning in this job is when you retire. Anyone that tells you differently is an idiot!




Kevin

[firetruckred]

Thank you all for such informative answers.

To tbonetrexler. I really appreciated story and advice. Very down to Earth. Thank you.

To Lafireeducator. Thank you for clarifying.

Melissa

[firetruckred]

Thank you Dickey. Funny I replied in the last post before I read your post.

As I stated before I have some wonderful friends. They are not just good weather friends. Most have been with me since the beginning of my goal to become a FF, and some before I even had the notion. They are truly brothers/sisters. I can't say enough about them. They have my back. Some I have met recently (a few months ago) that are highly trained individuals. I love listening about their calls and experiences on the job. Not a day goes by that I don't get a phone call, email or IM from someone in the fire service. One of my freinds is a LT., she is also a dispatcher. She is very good to me. She does not live near me unfortunetly. She has great advice. As for my FF Friends... I am truly blessed.

I just need to start asking questions.

Things have just gotten a little sticky around here.

Those that know me know my intentions and my heart and some that don't just like to make problems and assume your causing trouble by asking. Lately I fear it may have cost me to be so interested. Small town. Good 'Ole Boy System. People gossip and you know how it goes, if one FD knows they will all know it in three days. Count on it.

Melissa

[firetruckred]

Thank you DDay05 and tbonetrexler.

I always ask the Capt questions. Alot of my FF friends are engineers and Capts. Most, but not all, are in 10 or more yrs. I have some really great guys I surround myself with. This time around though it is a sore subject to talk about because basically some of Dept(s) that responded messed up. I didn't know and I thought it was a good fire to learn from. Now I am catching grief for my interest. It always a Conspiracy Theory around here.

Melissa

[Dickey]

Ok, I shall add to this as well.

First of all, I would not worry about taking heat from anyone. You are new so you obviously have lots of questions. Asking questions is a good thing. I would rather have you ask than to try to stumble through something or hurt yourself or others because you don't understand something. Some would say that a newbie should know their place. I say, sometimes, but by all means if you don't understand something, ask. The key is to ask at the right time and in a way that doesn't set someone off. It has taken me 15 years to figure out how to do that!

Now, your questions. Your fire department should have the pre-plan information as to what area has hydrants, and what does not. Get that info from your water utility. You really have to know your response area. In the areas where there are no hydrants, the tanker should go second out, right behind the engine. The engine can make a knockdown as the water supply is setting up. If it is in an area with no hydrants, mutual aid should be called ASAP! It is always better to turn them around if they are not needed than to need them 10min ago when you ran out of water.

In my department, our second in engine sets up the water supply. Our fold-a-tank is on our tanker so the tanker has to come second due. The tanker crew, with the second engine company sets up the water supply. We will call for mutual aid tankers immediately. If you need big water on a big fire, you will have to call extra engines and extra tankers for mulitple dump sites.

The first tanker will set up a fill station at the closest location. Either a hydrant, lake, river or creek. If it is not at a hydrant, you will need a special pump to pump from the lake or whatever natural water source you have. If you do not have a pump to do this, you need to call someone who does immediately as well.

What I suggest you to do is to hook up with a senior officer or senior firefirefighter to "take you under the wing" so to speak and answer your questions when you have them. Someone who won't tell you to shut up or brush you off but someone who would care and give you a straight answer. Someone you can learn from, not someone you learn bad habits from or who is "cranky" all the time.

Another thing I can say is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN! Do several nights of training doing a tanker operation. The only way you will learn is to do it.

Just had to add my thoughts. Good luck to ya!

[firetruckred]

Ask away! I'll answer anything I can.

Where in Florida were you?




Kevin

Fort Lauderdale.

[fireman4949]

G
Kevin,

Brother I didn't realize you lived in FL. Gosh, I have so many questions about how things are done in the Sunshine State. I lived there 17 yrs.

Ask away! I'll answer anything I can.

Where in Florida were you?




Kevin

[tbonetrexler]

To anyone: Please be patient as I am new at asking these questions openly online. I welcome opinions from other people who have experienced this or would know what to do.

Ok.....

I live in a suburban town where we are up and coming. There are some neighborhoods who don't want hydrants and/or don't have hydrants. We had a house fire not to long ago with no hydrants. I want to make sure I know what I am doing if/when it happens again. I would love an outsiders view.

My questions are....

If you have a house fire in an area with no hydrants and you have to do drafting, Do you know this before arrival?

Do you look at your map and see that there are no hydrants and call this in for help before you are there? Not enough time cause your gearing up? Who would call this in and when?

Are you suppose to arrive in the engine truck, do what you can, then set up for the tanker to come? Again manpower. We have an issue with manpower here! Only one truck leaves, usually, until further info is given.

How long does it take to set up the drafting? I watched a few vidoes on drafting. Guess it depends on how many guys are there and how long before the Tanker shows up? Could be busy fighting the fire?

We are paid and volly.

I know depending on who is there and who shows up plays alot into these questions for a small town. Unfortunetly we don't operate 4 man to a truck. We have 2 or 3 paid on 24/48 shifts and we depend on vollies.

If it was done right, Tell me what happens from the time you leave the firehouse till the time you pack up, what you would do. I am not criticing the IC or the brothers here in my town. I just want to know how to do it right when or if it happens to me. We have had this happen and it concerns me.

Melissa

PS. Remember I am new so don't crucify me to much. You all have so much experience and I appreciate all that you say and post. Please be as blunt as you like, I can handle straightforwardness.
I am limited in telling the details of what happened, sorry.

Here in slower lower, Kent County DE, the dispatch has all the hydrant info. On a working fire, they automatically dispatch the next 2 due tankers with the orginal dispatch. Also, we have one of the biggest tankers in the county, about 6,000 gallons (which helps and only requires a driver to roll, cause it is an 18 wheeler)

After we get the dispatch, we roll our first engine as soon as we have a crew (manpower problems here also). Our tanker is second truck out for non-hydrant areas (sometimes it beats the engine). We pull up in the engine, pull a line and begin suppression and search. The tanker hooks up to the engine and begins supplying it. The next engine, ours or otherwise, will ussually pull a second line of their truck and another tanker will hook into them, giving us two water supplies. The rest of the incoming units will drop their crews off, then begin a water shuttle from the nearest reliable source, whether it be drafting, a hydrant or even a firehouse (we have done that a few times in other districts)

We had a big brush pile fire a month or two ago, (not your ordinary brush pile, it was bigger than our firehouse!) in a district a bit south of here. They had almost every tanker in the lower half of our county and most of the county south of us. They had two 18 wheel tankers set up at the bottom of the hill, two more (one of them being ours) at the top of the hill, 2 drafting sites and a continous shuttle operation from about a mile away. We used upwards of millions of gallons of water on this thing at it didnt have much of an affect, it was wayt oo deepseated. When we left, they had about 8 or 9 monitors set up pouring the water on the pile. Both of the drafting engines got stuck and they were back out there the next couple days off and on. We almost ran out of water once, and we had poured a couple million gallons on there by then and less than 2 minutes after we stopped flowing due to the shortage of water, the fire was as high as it was when we got there. That was a fun call.