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  • #16
    Originally posted by fireman4949
    Many rural structure fires do not require a draft to be set up...Many do.
    There are many factors to consider that determine what the best line of attack is.

    Tankers can and do pump at fires. They are basically engines that have bigger tanks.

    Use what you have on scene first to its best potential and deploy additional resources as needed.
    If you think you will need more water than you have on scene, CALL FOR IT IMMEDIATELY!!!!! Never wait until you run low, or run out before making that decision!!!!!
    When in doubt, call 'em out! I'd MUCH rather have to cancel a unit or two than have to wait 10 minutes for one as I watch a house burn!




    Kevin
    Thanks.

    There are rumors, opinions and lots of gossip about what happened. I am catching HEAT now for asking about it. I was trying to understand. I didn't make one negative comment. I quitely inquired. Guess I wouldn't catch heat if mistakes weren't made? Hey everyone make mistakes. I just wanted to learn and now I am a nosey woman. Whatever.

    M
    Last edited by firetruckred; 08-09-2006, 11:59 PM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by LaFireEducator
      Melissia ...

      I think you are slightly confused.

      Fire Attack and Drafting at the water source are two different operations that may be sperated a mile or two or three.
      Well she said she was fairly new, so maybe she didn't get into the FUN WORLD of ICS lol. That would be run by a seperate entity. If someone wants to explain ICS feel free.

      Comment


      • #18
        We don't have hydrants in some areas but we just open our tank to pump and tank fill to recirculate the tank water and we never run out!!! Sorry I think I have terrets sometimes. No but to answer your questions, usually the officer and or engineer will know their first in district well enough to know if it has hydrants and usually there is something called a running order like the engine goes first then the tanker (tender darn NIMS) and such. When you have hydrants it's pretty easy running because if you can't get your own hydrant usually the second engine gets it for you and just relay pumps, whereas if your are drafing you still may need to have a second engine pump to you because you also want it to be easy for the tankers to dump like at a street corner where it's easy for them to get in and out like driving around the block. Also with tankers you need to have fill sites set up or designated for the tankers to refill. I say fill sites because if I remember right it takes like 6 tankers to keep up 1,000 gpm flow. We did it and all the tankers carry no less than 3,000 gallons of water. Remember for tankers you have to figure drive time to the fill site actuall fill time and the drive back to the scene. I hope this answers your qeustions.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by LaFireEducator
          Melissia ...

          I think you are slightly confused.

          Fire Attack and Drafting at the water source are two different operations that may be sperated a mile or two or three.

          All areas that you need tankers for (no hydrants or huydrants spaced very far apart that makes hose lays impractical - that is a very common situation here) should be identified before the fire. Rough estimations of fire flows for tha average size house should be calculated and the number of tankers needed to supply water should be determined. Then those areas should be identifed in some sort of book or computer program at your dispatch point. Thhe required number of tankers (including any needed mutual aid to "fill the run card") plus 1 additional engine for pumping water at the tanker fill point (if you can't supply it yourself) should be dispatched on the intiial alarm. This is a critical step that needs to be done well before the fire as part of the pre-planning process.

          Water fill points with and turn-arounds should then be identified. Mutual Aid compoanies need to be made aware of thier location. Command will identify a fill point to all arriving units. The supply pumper (either yours or mutual aid) will go to that location and setup drafting operations. This is a seperate operation for the firefighting operations. A fill point officer will be designated to run the fill site.

          Operations at the fire scene will run like any other fire. Lines are pulled. A decision is made to either have tankers dump into a folding tank or if equipped with pumps, have them pump thier water off to the attack engine. If a tank will be used it's set up and the attack engine prepares to draft from it. A water supply officer is assigned to moniter the tanker operation. A dump site officer is assigned to run the dump site. Additional tankers are called if needed.

          Running a tanker operation is an art that most city boys will never get the thrill of doing. I find it more challenging than running a firefighting operation.
          Uh yep! You can say that! HAHAHA.

          That is the reason I am asking. I am confused. I have not read the rest of your post so I shall return. I saw your first sentence and started laughing.

          M
          Last edited by firetruckred; 08-10-2006, 12:00 AM.

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          • #20
            You know I can't just say....

            This is what they say happened, this is what happened, this what I think should have happened and what do ya'll think.

            It would make my line of questioning make more sense and save me from looking like an idiot but as far as I am concerned...An idiot is someone who does not know something about something, someplace or someone. A stupid person is someone who is just dumb. Ignorance of a tactic is not stupidity. But to me stupidity is not learning how to NOT make the mistake you just made all over again.

            I have to go now. Thanks.

            M
            Last edited by firetruckred; 08-10-2006, 12:02 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Lieutenant516
              Well she said she was fairly new, so maybe she didn't get into the FUN WORLD of ICS lol. That would be run by a seperate entity. If someone wants to explain ICS feel free.
              Thank you for coming to my defense. I actually laughed though when I read that. I will say many times over to all who know so much in the fire service....I know nothing, teach me, show me.

              Melissa

              LA See thank you below.
              Last edited by firetruckred; 08-06-2006, 04:46 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Lieutenant516
                Well our town doesn't have a hydrant anywhere in over 54 sq miles (our town size). For a possible structure fire, we call mutual aid automatically, usually 1 or 2 companies. If we have a confirmed structure fire, we will call in a few surrounding companies with tankers. We have a lake that we can draft out of and a pipe at a mutual aid company that can be drafted out of (10,000 gal tank underground).

                We had a situation a couple years ago, with a junkyard, this wasn't in our town, and they had hydrants, but water supply was still a problem. We had about 4-5 tankers 8,000-10,000gal setup and drafting pools for them. Then we had about 30-40 engines shuttling water. We had a problem there of not enough pressure in the hydrant system to fill trucks at numerous locations. We had to spread everyone out, send people drafting, go into other towns. We had trucks going 5 miles away to get water, thats 5 mile radius.

                Overall it took 5-6 hours to knock down, and we flowed a few million gals of water. That was an experience I wont soon forget, a lot of things were learned there, especially being fairly new at the time. (And i am almost ashamed to say it, but I was being a little bit of a freelancer then. Giving a hand anywhere needed. The scene barely had a structured command.) We had every company in the county, and companies from 5 surrounding counties there.
                Wow where do you live?

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                • #23
                  Gosh, thanks everyone for all your help. I thought about posting these questions months ago but did not want to be ripped a new one for not knowing what hell I am talking about. It wasn't as painful as I thought it would be. HAHA.

                  Melissa

                  Kevin,

                  Brother I didn't realize you lived in FL. Gosh, I have so many questions about how things are done in the Sunshine State. I lived there 17 yrs.
                  Last edited by firetruckred; 08-05-2006, 06:08 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Can I add my 2 cents also?

                    In the county where I volunteer (272 sq mi; 30,000 population; 5 fire stations) we have about 50 standard fire hydrants, and we have 75 dry hydrants. All of these hydrants are appropriately marked on our maps, so the first-in officer will know where the nearest water source is.

                    Our SOP's dictate that three stations are notified for any type of structural call. This will bring three engines (750 gallons each) and three tankers (1800 to 3000 gallons each). The SOP's further dictate the following:
                    • First arriving engine: attacks fire with on-board water
                    • First arriving tanker: nurse-feeds the 1st engine while portable pond(s) are set up
                    • Second arriving engine: drafts water from the portable pond(s) and feeds the attack engine
                    • Third engine automatically goes to estabish the tanker fill site, wherever it might be
                    • Second and third tankers arrive, dump thier water, and fall into the tanker shuttle


                    The others have gone into a lot more detail, but I thought that our SOP might enlighten you a little bit more.

                    Keep asking questions, we'll keep giving you answers.
                    Career Fire Captain
                    Volunteer Chief Officer


                    Never taking for granted that I'm privileged enough to have the greatest job in the world!

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                    • #25
                      Thank you Boxalarm 187. : )

                      I think this fire caught a few people off guard? I don't know. Good learning curve as far as I am concerned. Lot's of Pride here, which is good, but we are not a town that catches fires often.

                      Melissa

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        We have an area of 72 sq.miles to cover and it's all rural,we have 2 stations,we have 2 engines,2 tankers,we usually end up with 2-3 on the first out truck if your lucky and a driver for the tanker,once on scene we allready know we have to draft or set up to draft so we drop our 5" line w/ a manifold at the end of the driveway,position the truck,then the crew pulls off the attack lines and usually the driver is stuck with getting the 5" hooked to the truck and telling when to charge the hose,on a side note we do have a CAFS pumper and when we have a fire in our twp. we have'nt been using alot of water like we use to lately we've been just using 1 of our tanker loads of water,but we still drop a line and set up just in case because anything can happen on the fireground.

                        Usually our next truck on the scene is 1 of our tankers and their job is to hit 1 side of our manifold and get water going back to the engine,and on top of that our tankers carry drop tanks and their other job is to set the drop tank up for our other engine coming to the scene.Once the other engine is on scenem, all they need to do is get out their suction hose and low flow strainer and their ready to start drafting water.We do like to set things up so we have atleast 2-3 drop tanks on the ground for the water shuttle and as a precautionary incase something happens.And our tanker that was supplying our engine is broke away and put in tha tanker shuttle rotation.

                        Our first mutual aid engine goes to a dry hydrant and is our draft truck for the tankers,and usually one of our officers is in charge of the water shuttle.We do train alot, and problems are not fixed over night it,but training pays off especially when you're short on manpower everyone knows what needs to be done and they get it done no matter if we have 3 people on scene or 30 on scene wich doesn't happen very often.But if you have your people trained and take the time and set things up it will save you headaches down the road.That's it in a nut shell anymore questions don't be affraid to ask.And I would be asking alot of questions at your fd if you have a question just ask and you know someone else probally has the same question to ask.BE SAFE
                        Last edited by dday05; 08-05-2006, 07:55 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by firetruckred
                          To anyone: Please be patient as I am new at asking these questions openly online. I welcome opinions from other people who have experienced this or would know what to do.

                          Ok.....

                          I live in a suburban town where we are up and coming. There are some neighborhoods who don't want hydrants and/or don't have hydrants. We had a house fire not to long ago with no hydrants. I want to make sure I know what I am doing if/when it happens again. I would love an outsiders view.

                          My questions are....

                          If you have a house fire in an area with no hydrants and you have to do drafting, Do you know this before arrival?

                          Do you look at your map and see that there are no hydrants and call this in for help before you are there? Not enough time cause your gearing up? Who would call this in and when?

                          Are you suppose to arrive in the engine truck, do what you can, then set up for the tanker to come? Again manpower. We have an issue with manpower here! Only one truck leaves, usually, until further info is given.

                          How long does it take to set up the drafting? I watched a few vidoes on drafting. Guess it depends on how many guys are there and how long before the Tanker shows up? Could be busy fighting the fire?

                          We are paid and volly.

                          I know depending on who is there and who shows up plays alot into these questions for a small town. Unfortunetly we don't operate 4 man to a truck. We have 2 or 3 paid on 24/48 shifts and we depend on vollies.

                          If it was done right, Tell me what happens from the time you leave the firehouse till the time you pack up, what you would do. I am not criticing the IC or the brothers here in my town. I just want to know how to do it right when or if it happens to me. We have had this happen and it concerns me.

                          Melissa

                          PS. Remember I am new so don't crucify me to much. You all have so much experience and I appreciate all that you say and post. Please be as blunt as you like, I can handle straightforwardness.
                          I am limited in telling the details of what happened, sorry.
                          Here in slower lower, Kent County DE, the dispatch has all the hydrant info. On a working fire, they automatically dispatch the next 2 due tankers with the orginal dispatch. Also, we have one of the biggest tankers in the county, about 6,000 gallons (which helps and only requires a driver to roll, cause it is an 18 wheeler)

                          After we get the dispatch, we roll our first engine as soon as we have a crew (manpower problems here also). Our tanker is second truck out for non-hydrant areas (sometimes it beats the engine). We pull up in the engine, pull a line and begin suppression and search. The tanker hooks up to the engine and begins supplying it. The next engine, ours or otherwise, will ussually pull a second line of their truck and another tanker will hook into them, giving us two water supplies. The rest of the incoming units will drop their crews off, then begin a water shuttle from the nearest reliable source, whether it be drafting, a hydrant or even a firehouse (we have done that a few times in other districts)

                          We had a big brush pile fire a month or two ago, (not your ordinary brush pile, it was bigger than our firehouse!) in a district a bit south of here. They had almost every tanker in the lower half of our county and most of the county south of us. They had two 18 wheel tankers set up at the bottom of the hill, two more (one of them being ours) at the top of the hill, 2 drafting sites and a continous shuttle operation from about a mile away. We used upwards of millions of gallons of water on this thing at it didnt have much of an affect, it was wayt oo deepseated. When we left, they had about 8 or 9 monitors set up pouring the water on the pile. Both of the drafting engines got stuck and they were back out there the next couple days off and on. We almost ran out of water once, and we had poured a couple million gallons on there by then and less than 2 minutes after we stopped flowing due to the shortage of water, the fire was as high as it was when we got there. That was a fun call.
                          Last edited by tbonetrexler; 08-05-2006, 07:18 PM.
                          Do a little dance, make a little rum, Italian Ice! Italian Ice!

                          Actual lyric: Do a little dance, make a little love, get down tonight, get down tonight.
                          (KC & The Sunshine Band "Do A Little Dance")

                          My thoughts are mine alone and do not represent the thoughts of any Organization to which I am affiliated.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by firetruckred
                            G
                            Kevin,

                            Brother I didn't realize you lived in FL. Gosh, I have so many questions about how things are done in the Sunshine State. I lived there 17 yrs.
                            Ask away! I'll answer anything I can.

                            Where in Florida were you?




                            Kevin
                            Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
                            IAFF Local 2339
                            K of C 4th Degree
                            "LEATHER FOREVER"
                            Member I.A.C.O.J.
                            http://www.tfdfire.com/
                            "Fir na tine"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by fireman4949
                              Ask away! I'll answer anything I can.

                              Where in Florida were you?




                              Kevin
                              Fort Lauderdale.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Ok, I shall add to this as well.

                                First of all, I would not worry about taking heat from anyone. You are new so you obviously have lots of questions. Asking questions is a good thing. I would rather have you ask than to try to stumble through something or hurt yourself or others because you don't understand something. Some would say that a newbie should know their place. I say, sometimes, but by all means if you don't understand something, ask. The key is to ask at the right time and in a way that doesn't set someone off. It has taken me 15 years to figure out how to do that!

                                Now, your questions. Your fire department should have the pre-plan information as to what area has hydrants, and what does not. Get that info from your water utility. You really have to know your response area. In the areas where there are no hydrants, the tanker should go second out, right behind the engine. The engine can make a knockdown as the water supply is setting up. If it is in an area with no hydrants, mutual aid should be called ASAP! It is always better to turn them around if they are not needed than to need them 10min ago when you ran out of water.

                                In my department, our second in engine sets up the water supply. Our fold-a-tank is on our tanker so the tanker has to come second due. The tanker crew, with the second engine company sets up the water supply. We will call for mutual aid tankers immediately. If you need big water on a big fire, you will have to call extra engines and extra tankers for mulitple dump sites.

                                The first tanker will set up a fill station at the closest location. Either a hydrant, lake, river or creek. If it is not at a hydrant, you will need a special pump to pump from the lake or whatever natural water source you have. If you do not have a pump to do this, you need to call someone who does immediately as well.

                                What I suggest you to do is to hook up with a senior officer or senior firefirefighter to "take you under the wing" so to speak and answer your questions when you have them. Someone who won't tell you to shut up or brush you off but someone who would care and give you a straight answer. Someone you can learn from, not someone you learn bad habits from or who is "cranky" all the time.

                                Another thing I can say is TRAIN, TRAIN, TRAIN! Do several nights of training doing a tanker operation. The only way you will learn is to do it.

                                Just had to add my thoughts. Good luck to ya!
                                Jason Knecht
                                Firefighter/EMT
                                Township Fire Dept., Inc.
                                Eau Claire, WI

                                IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
                                http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
                                EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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