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  • This Black Eye's Gonna Sting for a While

    Check this crap out:St. Louis's News Channel 5 Cover Story - 7.26.06

    Make sure you try and sit through the entire video.
    Life is only temporary, but freedom goes on forever. God bless those who gave all.

  • #2
    Man....I can't imagine. That's aweful.

    That is a decision an Incident Commander has to make (and I hope I never have to) is to when to draw the line at some point and say no more rescue attempts. Similar situation with the W6 guys. The Chief finally stood in the doorway from what I understand.

    It is an aweful decision and I feel for anyone who has already had to make a choice like that.

    I hope she recovers the best she can. There was no mention of any rescue attempts, I wonder what actually happened there.
    Jason Knecht
    Firefighter/EMT
    Township Fire Dept., Inc.
    Eau Claire, WI

    IACOJ - Director of Cheese and Whine
    http://www.cheddarvision.tv/
    EAT CHEESE OR DIE!!

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    • #3
      I really do not know what to think of this right now. On one hand, I wonder why a rescue was not attempted by other firefighters. On the other hand, Did IC make a difficult decision based on conditions?

      Comment


      • #4
        There is no way that we can "monday morning quarterback " this.

        First of all.. we weren't there.

        Second: having had command on more than a few fires, I can imagine what went through the IC's mind.

        Third: I hope that Sister Cindy Schuenke recovers both physically and emotionally.
        Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 07-27-2006, 11:56 AM.
        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

        Comment


        • #5
          There is no way that we can "monday morning quarterback " this.
          ABSOLUTELY!!! People need to realize that this is one side of the story. I hate that this happened... but I find it hard to believe that they "just left" her in there.

          I will reserve my comments and opinions when the FULL story comes out.

          I am willing to bet that this will be looked at differently then.
          Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

          Captain Grant Mishoe, Curator of History
          North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
          "You'll never know where you're going until you remember where you came from"
          www.legacyofheroes.org
          www.firehistory.org
          www.sconfire.com

          Comment


          • #6
            Sconfire & Gonzo,
            You are absolutly right. We are hearing the side of the "victim". Her perspective is obviosly going to be different than the rescuers. Remember the building colapsed and she landed in the basement. What was the condition of the rest of the sructure? All of us would hope that we were more agressive in this situation. Seeing the video of the house I would think they had options but I wasn't there. I'm sure that the IC would have a different story to tell. I think the news castors did a crapy job of only telling part of the story. Any one from this area that can fill us in?
            IAFF member, Love this job! Remember the oath!

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            • #7
              After reading all the posts, I realize I may not have made my point entirely clear. I absolutely agree with all of you. I think this was a tragic situation that is being made worse by the media coverage of it. The media around here tends to be somewhat "emergency services friendly" which is why this is such a stunner to me. I wish her all the luck in the world on a speedy recovery, but at the same time question the motive behind doing the interview for the story and portraying her fellow firefighters in such a negative light, as well as "considering legal action" as stated in the video. To me, that opens up a 55 gallon drum of crap that could lead to litigation later on down the line for all of us. If by some fluke she prevailed in her "legal action" and wins a settlement against the OIC or other firefighters, stop and think about what your chief is considering the next time he sends you into less than ideal conditions to perform a rescue - is it necessary or is he trying to avoid a lawsuit. A little extreme on my part, I agree. But, if I'm thinking about it, you can bet the farm that a lawyer has too. This job is inherently dangerous. We take calculated risks. And sometimes, the risk of death or injury becomes a reality. Everyone in the fire service knows it. It's a chance we all take every time the alarm sounds. If you can't handle the reality, maybe it's time to find something else to do with your time.
              Life is only temporary, but freedom goes on forever. God bless those who gave all.

              Comment


              • #8
                My best wishes to Sister Cindy for a full recovery.
                I agree with everything that has been said so far. I would also very much like to hear from other firefighters on scene and the IC regarding what they saw and their thought process. Unfortunately, the possible legal action probably has everyone who was there clammed up and tight lipped.
                Let me add another thought to the discussion.
                Suppose the IC had sent a crew into an untenable environment or situation to attempt a rescue and things had gone from bad to worse. Would the IC be villified for making the decision to send a crew into an environment that he knew he shouldn't be sending them into however, he let his emotions get the best of him? Just food for thought.
                I can't imagine a worse challenge as an IC to have to make a decision like that and thankfully have never had to.
                My best wishes for all involved.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Suppose the IC had sent a crew into an untenable environment or situation to attempt a rescue and things had gone from bad to worse. Would the IC be villified for making the decision to send a crew into an environment that he knew he shouldn't be sending them into however, he let his emotions get the best of him? Just food for thought.
                  Exactley.

                  Think about Worcester, MA... This is by no way that scale, but imagine being the IC and having to make that decision.
                  Always remember the CHARLESTON 9

                  Captain Grant Mishoe, Curator of History
                  North Charleston and American LaFrance Fire Museum
                  "You'll never know where you're going until you remember where you came from"
                  www.legacyofheroes.org
                  www.firehistory.org
                  www.sconfire.com

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Well things like this I worry about with my company. Also, this is what I hate about the electric company... You aren't supposed to pull the meter to turn off the electric, but in our town, we might have to wait 30 mins for the electric company to get there. She was being electricuted down there, I would have made the decission to pull the meter if the circuit breaker was not able to be reached before sending people in.

                    Also, I understand that you sometimes have to make those decissions, but it sounds like they didnt weigh out the options. I wonder if anyone even looked through one of those windows around the basement to see if they could see her. Firefighters could have gone for a quick rescue through a window.

                    I dont know, and you guys are right, we weren't there, dont know the situation and how bad the conditions are. We really can't monday quarterback this one, but something seems wrong about this one. If she was laying there for that long, and ended up getting herself out, just seems like a rescue attempt could have been made.

                    To me it just seems like lack of RIT knowledge.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by sconfire
                      Exactley.

                      Think about Worcester, MA... This is by no way that scale, but imagine being the IC and having to make that decision.
                      I know District Chief Mike McNamee, the IC of the Worcester Cold Storage fire and his aide that night, George Zincus. I work with George at the Fire Academy and know mike through the District 3 hazmat team

                      He made the most difficult decision that any fireground commander could have made. Consider what would have happened if he didn't stand in the doorway and said no...

                      It could have been the Worcester 20, 30, or even more.

                      The fireground commander at Cindy's fire probably made a similar decision... I don't know, as I wasn't there, but I am sure some "self appointed fire department genius" will spout his theory as gospel on this forum and topic.

                      The outcome, with Cindy survivng, was probably a one in a million chance. Until all the sides are heard, I will keep an open mind and reserve comment.
                      ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                      Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I would be very surprised if a search and rescue attempt (one, if not several) were not made.
                        Given the apparent conditions, it's quite possible her location was a complete surprise to all. Did anyone even know she had fallen through into the cellar? Obviously she did, but was it known to the rest of the crew(s), or was she just unaccounted for?

                        I certainly would like to know the whole story.

                        Whatever the circumstances, God Bless her and I pray for her full recovery!




                        Kevin
                        Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
                        IAFF Local 2339
                        K of C 4th Degree
                        "LEATHER FOREVER"
                        Member I.A.C.O.J.
                        http://www.tfdfire.com/
                        "Fir na tine"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by fireman4949
                          I would be very surprised if a search and rescue attempt (one, if not several) were not made.
                          Given the apparent conditions, it's quite possible her location was a complete surprise to all. Did anyone even know she had fallen through into the cellar? Obviously she did, but was it known to the rest of the crew(s), or was she just unaccounted for?

                          I certainly would like to know the whole story.

                          Whatever the circumstances, God Bless her and I pray for her full recovery!
                          Yeah, I would like the hear the whole story. Just by what it sounded like, thats what my statement is about. Either way its a tough one. Her story wouldn't mention much about what was happening outside the structure. Who knows what the conditions were like. And if she fell through the floor, into the basement, sounds like the basement was on fire and extended up to the first floor and maybe further if the 1st story floor collapsed.

                          I'd like to hear if they called in a USAR team though.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            And just what would a USAR do?

                            In a firefighter missing/trapped event, you need rapid intervention, Oh wait RIC. Waiting 15, 30 or an hour for a USAR and that person is out of air. Don't know if they had RIC, don't know if they could have made a difference? Hell we don't even know if a mayday was made? There is so much missing from this, about the only thing that we can say is, get better Cindy.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Any one from this area that can fill us in?

                              I was NOT there, and don't know exactly what happened. I just wish her well in her recovery.
                              Last edited by FHandz15; 07-28-2006, 12:52 AM.

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