Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Class A foam....when to use it?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    LaFireEducator...

    The metro FD near us that tried CAFs and in fact had it on every engine hated it, HATED IT.

    Their complaints:

    1) Sure it put out the fire, NO COOLING, or not nearly the cooling effect of plain water or class A and water.
    2) Water supply was a nightmare, they were a LDH water supply FD and their hydrant pressure totally screwed up the metering of foam and the cfm's to make decent finished foam. They actually reverted back to experiementing with 2 1/2 inch supply lines to correct the problem.
    3) Kinking was a major issue.

    Now I am sure cfire will say they were bumbling idiots, but I would say to that then so were the manufacturers of those rigs who had NO answers to the problems.

    The one builder that wanted us to buy a CAFs pumper explained that their system ran only from tank water and the way you didn't run out of tank water was to put a line to a check valve supply line to the tank. I asked what if we need big water because for some reason the fire got away from us? He said it would NEVER happen. Please? Does he really think most people believe that line of crap? IF the system can't be supplied through the main suction intake AND compensate for hydrant pressure then in my opinion it simply is not practical for most FD's.

    The cost is a major problem for smaller or even larger cash strapped FD's. It could be the best thing since sliced bread and no iron shirts but if it is so expensive you can't afford it what is the point?

    Again, even though cfire3 has resorted to personal attacks and defamation and has purposely mispelled my screen name on a couple of occasions I will not stoop to his level. My points are about CAFs and not his deception of his agenda.

    FyredUp
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #47
      Sounds like the salesmen were the bumbling idiots to me.

      I think one of the major problems here is that too many fire departments are willing to go out and buy the latest gadget with no regard for dollars and cents. Rather than giving the salesmen heck and making them prove themselves they just buy it. So when it comes time to really prove themselves, the salesmen fall short. What is a shame is that they can still make a living operating that way.

      Originally posted by cfire3
      Now that's a good answer, it is appreciated.
      I suppose I'd better do as frydup has suggested and start my own " I love CAFS" post somewhere else, but thanks again for your logical response.
      I'm glad you like it but I happen to think the posts by ChicagoFF and the others here are just as logical. Just because I happen to be good at writing out my thoughts in a manner that you understand does not make anybody else's points less valid.

      Birken

      Comment


      • #48
        It seems as though there are a few here that need to take an 'Anger Management' course.

        I am new to this site, and I did not read where Cfire was attacking anyone. He is merely stating his position, and trying to be informative. Fyredup went overboard, and was clearly angered that anyone would 'infringe' on his personal territory and 'his thread'.

        I want to come here to read opposition and to learn. Not to read someones personal angry feelings displayed through their replies to informative posts.

        Fyredup, do you intend to use Class A Foam as a wetting agent, or a true foam? CAFS makes better foam out of Class A than any other type foam equipment. In my area when you use a CAFS system, the insurance pays for the use of the CAFS engine and for each of the fire fighters required to apply the CAFS foam. This averages to about $2000. for a car fire if we use the oil eating microbes, and about $4000. for a house fire.

        We're working on getting the ISO rating CAFS discount for the whole community. This would save the taxpayers a great deal of money on their homeowners insurance for the use of CAFS, plus the ability to save on the water resources. Personally, I'm not a wasteful person, and water is a precious commodity where ever one lives. I have comfort knowing that in my area, my fire department is doing the best they can, being environmentally friendly and taking care of Mother Earth.

        Thank you.

        Comment


        • #49
          Well said Firegurl!! I am in agreement with your views .... welcome to the forum!
          Euro Firefighter 2008 - Strategy & Tactics from the World's Firegrounds

          Comment


          • #50
            1. welcome to the forums!

            2. this is starting to look like a 'Shorts as a uniform option????'. hope this gets resolved quickly before it hits the fan.

            we go with class a foam. we are seeing if we should get CAFs system on our new pumper, but i doubt we will. our neighboring company got one and its all screwed up. so far, they rarely used it.
            First in, Last out, nobody left behind.....

            Comment


            • #51
              Good Afternoon!

              I have enjoyed the reading of this interesting and informative thread.

              In my department we use two CAFS units, depending on the nature of the call. One is built onto the truck and the other is towed. Our attack truck is usually the first one out, and has the CAFS unit built on it.

              The experience I've had with CAFS is that it has been more effective than just a Class A in-water system. Using the CAFS system not only has been more effective, but using CAFS has allowed me to be the nozzle-man, and be much more effective in fighting a fire than my counterpart who uses water with just Class A in it.

              I think I'll start my own thread. CAFS is for Women!

              Thank you.

              Comment


              • #52
                CAFFS seems to be the up and coming thing. In Fla it is becoming more popular. A department we run with has it on several units and others without it. I have heard mixed reviews on it from their members from one extreme to the other. I have had absolutely no experience with it except to read about it so I can not comment. I will say that we have recently transitioned from F500 to National Knockdown Class A Foam. We batch mix it (pour in tank) for most fires. It works very well and there is good knockdown and very little rekindles! I can put about 1 gallon in our engine with a 1000 gallon tank, open the tank fill a second and have a 1000 gallon mixture of Class A Foam solution at about 1/10%.

                Using the TFT Nozzles and even the few Elkharts we have the concept works well.
                09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                ------------------------------
                IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                BMI Investigator
                ------------------------------
                The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                Comment


                • #53
                  firegurl06...

                  I find it extremely interesting that in your first post you choose to attack my character. Did you even bother to read what my ORIGINAL questions were? Or the fact that I asked repeatedly for people, especially cfire3, to either stay on topic or go elsewhere and start a CAFs topic. Whether you, or him, or anyone else thinks CAFs is the second coming of the whomever your deity is, was and is, simply not relevant to the questions I asked. Because I don't for one second believe you read my original question or that you "accidentally" stumbled across this topic I will repost my original post so maybe this time you will understand why I simply don't find any mention of CAFs relevant to the reason I started this topic.

                  My FD got a new rescue engine with a Class A foam system on it. It is piped to our 2-200 foot two inch bumper crosslays, our 2-300 foot above the pump crosslays, and our 2 rear 2 1/2 inch discharges. The foam tank is 30 gallons and the system is a Hale Foam Logix 3.3.

                  Here is the question we are working on: When to use the foam? One camp says every time we go interior on a structure fire we should be using foam. Others say only during overhaul. Others say at the officer's discretion.

                  Honestly I see trouble with all of the above. For me the best choice seems to be any time you go interior for a fire attack the foam should be used. Of course officer's discretion may say not this time if it turns out to be a nothing fire. But to me the effectiveness of the foam begins during suppression.

                  I think all of us realize that the fully involved structure is a situation where the foam stays turned off. We are mostly hydranted so water is not a major issue for us in most cases.

                  Let me know what you think.

                  Thanks,

                  FyredUp


                  IF you bothered to read my original post this time this is the key item you CAFs people need to comprehend..

                  My FD got a new rescue engine with a Class A foam system on it. It is piped to our 2-200 foot two inch bumper crosslays, our 2-300 foot above the pump crosslays, and our 2 rear 2 1/2 inch discharges. The foam tank is 30 gallons and the system is a Hale Foam Logix 3.3.

                  The new rescue engine has been delivered. It has a Class A foam system, not a CAFs system. NOW do you see why trying to convince me that we should be getting CAFs isn't relevant?

                  Did you see that I said REPEATEDLY that if cfire3 likes CAFs, great. We didn't spec it, don't have it and didn't want it due to costs considerations. I merely tried to keep the posts on the topic that I ORIGINALLY posted. You accuse me of having anger management issues yet you make no reference to this comment by cfire3 "Class A foam, when to use it? You might try drinking it, I've heard it cleans up trash mouth." Or the even more telling truth that he had a hidden agenda to prove his invention is the only way to fight fire. I would have had far more respect for him if he had been honest about that from the get go. I have spent my time on suspension from this website for inappropriate behavior so I don't need you to tell me how to behave. But I was and will always be HONEST about where I am coming from. And frankly, I have done nothing wrong here except try to get my original questions answered.

                  Did you also happen to notice that I did NOT post on your CAFs topic? I did not try to side track YOUR topic with irrelevant posts. All I asked was the same common courtesy in the topic I originated.

                  Either way, both you and cfire3 have a nice life and good luck in selling your product. Perhaps the primary focus should be on figuring out a way to make it less expensive.

                  FyredUp
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FyredUp
                    firegurl06...

                    Either way, both you and cfire3 have a nice life and good luck in selling your product. Perhaps the primary focus should be on figuring out a way to make it less expensive.

                    FyredUp
                    Good morning Fyredup (I hope I got it right that time), since you have mentioned my post again I feel as though it's an invitaion to respond. So to stick to your topic, and I would like to point out that I DO see you have said that you have a new class A FOAM system installed on your truck. And are asking for ideas when to use it. First of all, it IS a FOAM system and should be considered it will be used to create or generate FOAM. I would like to suggested how you might use your new foam system to connect it to an inexpensive apparatus that generates a very good foam, but that system doesn't seem to interest, you so I would like to suggest the other ways you might benefit from the foam system that you do have.

                    The type of foaming agent and the brand names will have important effects on the quality of the finished foam that you can expect to generate. I won't be able to mention brand names because I use nearly all of them depending on the application that I need them for. You will find that some of the agents are much better than others. One of the most important things you should consider, besides cost, is how durable is the foam that is created and what water/agent mixture is the minimum to withstand the discharge velocity of the type nozzle you will be using. Otherwise the foam will not hold together and you will create only a weting agent effect which is far less effectrive and much more wastefull than any type of foam application on class A type fires and never never on class B fires.

                    If you use a foam nozzle you will need to greatly increase the amount of agent you inject into the water (follow manufacturers specs) because the aspirated foam nozzle is designed for a specific quality of agent and requires a fixed amount of water pressure and volume to work properly. If you don't follow the factory instructions you will get a soupy slurry or wastefull application that runs-off into the watershed to pollute the drinking water and kill all the fish in the streams before it reaches the resevoirs. And also beware of a chemical company that ships half full containers of class A foam and suggests they save you freight by not shipping all the water. It's a rip off. There is a whole nuther world opening up for the fire departments getting into the class a foam chemical business. I might suggest having a look at Paul Grimwoods posts, he has a lot of good class A foam information.

                    I predict you will get board with the class A injector and will stop using it all together. It's just soapy water in your water hose.
                    Last edited by cfire3; 07-31-2006, 01:06 PM.
                    Mark Cummins

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      FyredUp,

                      I think they are the same person.

                      Birken

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by BirkenVogt
                        FyredUp,

                        I think they are the same person.

                        Birken
                        i have no comment
                        First in, Last out, nobody left behind.....

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by BirkenVogt
                          FyredUp,

                          I think they are the same person.

                          Birken
                          Nope! I assure you I am cfire3 and only cfire3. But! you may have noticed that there are a lot of CAFS fire fighters begining to think alike. Even the female fire fighters are getting into the class a benefits.

                          And many of them are City Managers, Mayors, Councilmen and Fire Chiefs.

                          You may be getting a CAFS next, and some of this "how to use class A Foam" information might be very helpfull.
                          Mark Cummins

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            BirkenVogt

                            FyredUp,

                            I think they are the same person.

                            Birken
                            ummmm, ya think?

                            I noticed some almost direct quote similarities between their posts...

                            Just makes me laugh how "she" appeared out of nowhere. Found this topic. And then used almost word for word cfire3 argument to support CAFs.

                            FyredUp
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Some of the regulars were missing when I talked to the guys on the class a foam engine near me. They had no clue about the foam system. It doesn't seem like they were really using it. I'll try to find out more next day.
                              I am a complacent liability to the fire service

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by cfire3
                                Good morning Fyredup (I hope I got it right that time), since you have mentioned my post again I feel as though it's an invitaion to respond. So to stick to your topic, and I would like to point out that I DO see you have said that you have a new class A FOAM system installed on your truck. And are asking for ideas when to use it. First of all, it IS a FOAM system and should be considered it will be used to create or generate FOAM. I would like to suggested how you might use your new foam system to connect it to an inexpensive apparatus that generates a very good foam, but that system doesn't seem to interest, you so I would like to suggest the other ways you might benefit from the foam system that you do have. You just can't help yourself can you?

                                The type of foaming agent and the brand names will have important effects on the quality of the finished foam that you can expect to generate. I won't be able to mention brand names because I use nearly all of them depending on the application that I need them for. You will find that some of the agents are much better than others. One of the most important things you should consider, besides cost, is how durable is the foam that is created and what water/agent mixture is the minimum to withstand the discharge velocity of the type nozzle you will be using. Otherwise the foam will not hold together and you will create only a weting agent effect which is far less effectrive and much more wastefull than any type of foam application on class A type fires and never never on class B fires. Following the advice of others on here and from experience at my career FD we will be using it metered at between .1 and .3% for structural fire attack. We will have an aerated nozzle for heavier foam blanket applications when needed. I can tell you that with .5% on 3/4 inch garden hose with Bubble Cup nozzles we are able to make a very thick foam blanket that we have used for both structural overhaul and for wildland fire attack. This is from a 70 gpm 100 psi portable pump.

                                If you use a foam nozzle you will need to greatly increase the amount of agent you inject into the water (follow manufacturers specs) because the aspirated foam nozzle is designed for a specific quality of agent and requires a fixed amount of water pressure and volume to work properly. IF the installed foam system is operated within spec and you don't exceed the total flow for the system out of that one discharge no matter what flow you flow it will make proper foam at the selected percentage. There is a major difference in operating from an installed system and using an eductor for foam production. An installed system uses a foam pump to pump the required foam for the flow. An eductor needs a specific pressure, usually 200 psi, and for the eductor and the nozzle to match. I spent 7 years as a CFR firefighter using foam systems with sperate pumps that worked fine over flow ranges from 100 gpm to 2000 gpm. The foam pump supplies what is needed to meet the meter setting. If you don't follow the factory instructions you will get a soupy slurry or wastefull application that runs-off into the watershed to pollute the drinking water and kill all the fish in the streams before it reaches the resevoirs. And CAFs foam just mystically and magically disappears into thin air or is picked up by the CAFs fairies. Eventually even that breaks down. And also beware of a chemical company that ships half full containers of class A foam and suggests they save you freight by not shipping all the water. It's a rip off. There is a whole nuther world opening up for the fire departments getting into the class a foam chemical business. We use a well known name brand and have used that same brand for most of the life of our use of Class A faom. I might suggest having a look at Paul Grimwoods posts, he has a lot of good class A foam information. Ummm, no thanks.

                                I predict you will get board with the class A injector and will stop using it all together. It's just soapy water in your water hose. I guess we have a long attention span since we have been using it from Scotty systems for wildland and overhaul for a decade and then from our new brush truck for 2 years.
                                I did find parts of what you said here informative, so thank you for that. But you still needed to throw your digs in. I am happy for you and for firegurl06 that pulling an industrial compressor behind a fire truck seems like a viable idea for fire attack. I am happy for both of you that CAFs is your answer to everything fire involved. Whether you are willing to admit it or not without sarcasm, COST is a real world issue for a factory installed, non-jury rigged CAFs system.

                                Thanks for at least partially staying on topic this time.

                                FyredUp
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

                                300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

                                Collapse

                                Upper 300x250

                                Collapse

                                Taboola

                                Collapse

                                Leader

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X