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Class A foam....when to use it?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by FyredUp
    We would have had to give up too many other things in order to do that that we felt were far more important to us.

    FyredUp
    Thanks for writing slow, I need all the help I can get, but one last comment and I'll leave it alone with the class A and when to use it,

    Have you considered, since you already have a good class A system, that you don't have to have the compressor mounted on your fire truck? Could you consider just a standard commercial air compressor that had a simple manifold added to the compressor? Your pumper could supply a 1-1/2 to it?

    Your class A system supplies the water and chemical and the compressor only adds the air and all the benefits of CAFS. That would be enough for two full capacity CAFS attack hoses.

    And OK you got me, I'm not selling CAFS right now, but I did invent it.
    Attached Files
    Mark Cummins

    Comment


    • #32
      cfire3...

      LISTEN one last time....WE DIDN'T WANT CAFs. It never was even on our list of items we wanted from the start. Frankly, I know FF's on a local metro FD that had CAFs and they hated it. So not everyone is a CAFS fan, even some users.

      WE will not be jury rigging some Craftsman compressor to our rig to make CAFs. We will not be adding compressed air cylinders to make a CAFs system. We will not be spending the kind of money they want for those systems when there are other things we deemed FAR more important than that.

      Thanks for admitting your need to justify CAFs was more than just from a user standpoint. Frankly it ****es me off when hidden agendas like that have to be dragged out of people.

      NOW PLEASE STOP with the propaganda and let those that can actually offer help to my original question post.

      FyredUp
      Crazy, but that's how it goes
      Millions of people living as foes
      Maybe it's not too late
      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by FyredUp
        NOW PLEASE STOP with the propaganda and let those that can actually offer help to my original question post.

        FyredUp
        Class A foam, when to use it? You might try drinking it, I've heard it cleans up trash mouth.
        Mark Cummins

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by cfire3
          Please don't get me wrong, I know that CAFS is not for everyone, and I appologize if I have offended your decision not to spend the outrageous amount of money to have CAFS on your pumper. In fact I agree they are overpriced.

          But, there are some new things happening with CAFS that might influence future decisions. There are State Forest Services that are giving fire departments free foam to fight rural fires because it's proven to do more with less, and saves more lives and property than most everything else they supply. That's your tax dollars coming back to you. Some of them cost share the CAFS apparatus for fire departments. And insurance companies are beginning to recognize CAFS puts the fire out faster and saves more insured damage so they are offering premium discounts and ISO reductions, they aren't doing this with other foam equipment or class A foam/wet water hardware. Most mortaged property is covered by fire insurance and will cover the cost of foam applications. Bottom line is, CAFS can pay it's own way now.

          And as for High flow 2 inch water applications, I commend your ability to get it into the house fire. By the way, it doesn't matter if it has the foam in it or not because when it hits the walls and furniture it still runs off so fast it doesn't have time to soak in, it'll be runnin down the street and into the water shed where it will deposit all the toxic by-products of combustion it picked up on the way. It might be nice if the home owner had a choice of putting the fire out faster with CAFS. I'm sorry, it's just a fact that CAFS could work for you too.
          It's a wonder we ever get any fires out at all without this stuff. I still don't understand why water won't work for you.

          Fyred - the city just bought 6 (I think) new engines with foam tanks to mess around with. One is not too far from my engine. I'll try to talk with them next day and see what we are doing. I suspect it will be used for about 6 months and then never used again. That is how it usually goes here.
          I am a complacent liability to the fire service

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by ChicagoFF
            It's a wonder we ever get any fires out at all without this stuff. I still don't understand why water won't work for you.
            I understand your confusion, but it's like a caveman telling a modern elephant hunter, he don't understand why rocks won't work for him. Rocks are just fine if that's all you have or all you want. There's just something better, ask Alan Brunacini.
            Mark Cummins

            Comment


            • #36
              The more years go by the less awed I am by Brunacini. Many of his ideas have merit but they need to be decided on their merits not the fact that he espouses them. The majority of his success comes from the fact that he self-promotes so effectively which is not a bad quality in a chief. In fact it is a very good quality. But I will wait for some real data before making any investment of this scope. Sales pitches do not affect me in the slightest. Show me the money.

              Birken

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by BirkenVogt
                The more years go by the less awed I am by Brunacini. Many of his ideas have merit but they need to be decided on their merits not the fact that he espouses them. The majority of his success comes from the fact that he self-promotes so effectively which is not a bad quality in a chief. In fact it is a very good quality. But I will wait for some real data before making any investment of this scope. Sales pitches do not affect me in the slightest. Show me the money.

                Birken
                Now that's a good answer, it is appreciated.
                I suppose I'd better do as frydup has suggested and start my own " I love CAFS" post somewhere else, but thanks again for your logical response.
                Mark Cummins

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by cfire3
                  I understand your confusion, but it's like a caveman telling a modern elephant hunter, he don't understand why rocks won't work for him. Rocks are just fine if that's all you have or all you want. There's just something better, ask Alan Brunacini.
                  You're right, I'm a caveman. I don't think foam is needed for the vast majority of fires(only for gasoline and stuff). I don't think PPV is needed at all. I don't understand the hysterics over bunker gear. Bourkes work great for me. I like pick headed axes. We don't use chain saws. We don't wear tanks on the roof. And you know what? We run alot of fires and do a pretty good job getting them out. Maybe, sitting in the middle of Texas, you might be impressed with the ideas of a suburban chief and be facinated with the never ending quest to fix something that isn't broke. I choose to defer to the decades upon decades of proven proceedures and tactics that have worked over and over again. Just as a guess, I would bet CFD runs ten times the fires that PFD does, and has done it for what, 100 years longer. Maybe your ambitious chief should run with us here and re-learn the basics before he tries to tell everyone the "right" way to do things. Maybe you should brush up on the basics too. It's not a complicated job. Stop trying to make it one.

                  I'll go back to my cave now.
                  Last edited by ChicagoFF; 07-27-2006, 11:50 PM.
                  I am a complacent liability to the fire service

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ChicagoFF
                    I'll go back to my cave now.
                    OK. But it's a shame.

                    I predict you will see the day when a taxpayer will ask you why you didn't use CAFS foam to save more of his house or the insurance company that thanks you because they can raise the price of the homeowners policy because you don't use CAFS, or the attorney that thanks you for the liability lawsuit, or the OSHA agent that askes you if you know you are supposed to use the latest technology to protect your employees.

                    You are at least aware of some of the modern inovations that survived the nay-sayers, I suppose the guy that first said he was going to wear an over stuffed overcoat and go inside a burning building had some guys really upset, and then he had the insane idea to strap on a high pressure air tank to his back and pull a sock over his head so he stay in the fire longer.

                    Well, it sounds like you're doing so good where you are, that maybe the home owners don't need any fire insurance at all, you have all the cheap abundant water you need and it's not your job to worry about where all the toxic run-off goes.

                    Well, I gotta go fix something that ain't broke, but it sure needs improvement.

                    Watch out for falling rocks and biting dinasours, and call me if you run into a fire that's kicking your waters !!!
                    Mark Cummins

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      cfire3....

                      Thanks for hijacking my thread. I had serious questions that I wanted serious answers to. Not your propaganda sales pitch for your wonderful invention.

                      Since apparently you have trouble with comprehension let me say this one last time....the new engine is here, it does NOT have CAFs and will NOT have CAFs. It has a Class A foam system. That is what my questions were about.

                      By the way, hidden agenda, sales pitch type posts like yours are against the policies of Firehouse.com, read the rules sometime.

                      Now please go start your own I love CAFs post, where unlike you I will not rudely interject comments totally unrelated to the original question.

                      FyredUp
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        ChicagoFF...

                        Isn't it wonderful how people who have NOTHING to add to the original topic have to revert to attacking others?

                        IF he had been honest from the start and said he had an agenda to push concerning CAFs I might be more inclined to cut him some slack. But just like you I am not inclined to cut anyone any slack whose sales pitch includes attacking and defaming as part of their sales pitch.

                        I have far more respect for you, even though we may disagree on some items, because you are open and forthright in who and what you are.

                        By the way, since Chicago most surely must have burned to the ground is there anyway you can get me a couple billion dollars worth of construction contracts for part of the rebuilding process?

                        FyredUp
                        Crazy, but that's how it goes
                        Millions of people living as foes
                        Maybe it's not too late
                        To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by FyredUp
                          ChicagoFF...

                          Isn't it wonderful how people who have NOTHING to add to the original topic have to revert to attacking others?

                          IF he had been honest from the start and said he had an agenda to push concerning CAFs I might be more inclined to cut him some slack. But just like you I am not inclined to cut anyone any slack whose sales pitch includes attacking and defaming as part of their sales pitch.

                          I have far more respect for you, even though we may disagree on some items, because you are open and forthright in who and what you are.

                          By the way, since Chicago most surely must have burned to the ground is there anyway you can get me a couple billion dollars worth of construction contracts for part of the rebuilding process?

                          FyredUp
                          Our fire house is the last thing standing in our district! (I'm sick of the oldtimers telling me how good they were. If you were that good - where did all these lots come from??? )

                          Anyway, like I said, I'll ask the guys with the foam engine how they are using it if we run with them tommorow. I'm sure we will see them out on the street. All I really know is that we have 6 of them (I think 6) and they have been goofing around with them. I will try and find out what their sop's for it are. Like I said, I suspect they will try it out for 6 months or a year and then never use it again. What the hell, it's just the taxpayers money!!!
                          I am a complacent liability to the fire service

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            There is no doubt that Class A foam does work better than straight water. There is more than enough evidence (both experimental and anecdotical) that proves that. The jury is still out on CAFs as there has been some success with it in some applications, especially wildland, but there are still real questions as to it's firefighting and cost effectiveness for structural and everyday applications. At some point CAFs may become a viable system for widespread use but it's certainly not at that point yet. I have serious questions about CAFs cooling ability on structure fires with so little water. I have participated in CAFs demonstrations invilving structure fires and found little difference in knockdown capability compared to non-CAFs Class A and was not impressed with it's ability to reduce overhaul time vs non-CAFs Class A.

                            For those that doubt it's class A's effectiveness, it does put a fire out faster with less water and less overhaul time. It's just a matter of money (both in the inital cost of installing a system and the on-going cost of the concentrate) and accepting a new (and now very proven) concept.

                            We do not have any proportioner systems on our apparatus (much to my chargrine, but money is a real issue for us) so we do not use Class A in our initial attack, but we do carry a portable low volume (20-40 gpm) portable proportioner on 3 of our engines that attaches to a booster line which is used extensivly for overhaul on structure and vehicle fires. On occasion, if the forestry department is unable to send a bulldozer to establish a plowed fireline, we will use it to overhaul brush fires in heavy fuels, but that is rare due to the cost of the foam and the low value dollar of the brush fire. We do not use it on trash or dumpster fires because of the cost. We have plenty of water on wheels and the powers that be would rather dump an extra 500 gallons of free water on a pile of trash then spend the money for a gallon or two of class A, which makes sense.

                            It just amazes me that the Bruno discussion has found it's way into another thread. Why there is so much anger directed at him and his concepts amazes me, but that's another discussion for another time.

                            One more point. Being a bean-counter type, I was doing some math C-Fire regarding your example. At $55 gallon for a 5 gallon pail of Class A concentrate (which is our current price) that's $11 a gallon. You stated that you used 1,383 gallons of foam on that incident and less than 100 gallons of water. That would mean you spent $15,213 on foam for one fire. In our case, we'd rather use that amount in free water, as that kind of expenditure on foam on a regular basis would cause some serious fiscal issues forour department.
                            Train to fight the fires you fight.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by LaFireEducator
                              One more point. Being a bean-counter type, I was doing some math C-Fire regarding your example. At $55 gallon for a 5 gallon pail of Class A concentrate (which is our current price) that's $11 a gallon. You stated that you used 1,383 gallons of foam on that incident and less than 100 gallons of water. That would mean you spent $15,213 on foam for one fire. In our case, we'd rather use that amount in free water, as that kind of expenditure on foam on a regular basis would cause some serious fiscal issues forour department.
                              Frydup, I appologize for adding anything else to your thread but please let me answer LaFireEducators comment directed to me about class A and how I use it.

                              The 1,383.8 gpm is my flow rate of the finished foam applied with a 1.75 inch hose, not the amount of concentrate I used. 100 gallons of water can make 6,000 gallons of finished foam with less than a half gallon of concentrate. I pay $10 per gallon for the concentrate, so that's only $5 bucks for each 6,000 gallons of fire killing foam that has been proven by the National Institute of Standards and Technology comparing a gallon of water to a gallon of CAFS class A foam proved the gallon of finished CAFS foam to be as much as 20 times more efficiant as a gallon of water. And usually the homeowners insurance gladly pays for the whole 5 gallon bucket even if I don't use that much. (we use the extra $40 to purchase more concentrate)

                              Now the coalmine fire was a different deal, I used 10,000 gallons of concentrate and generated 18 million gallons of foam to put that fire out, but I saved the company tens of millions of dollars in damages and loss, not to mention the tons of air pollution the taxpayers didn't have to breath. Yep I definately do love the class A FOAM and that's only a few of the ways I use it.
                              Mark Cummins

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                The real math is this....

                                1) $40 for a 5 gallon pail of foam
                                2) $25 to $50K for CAFs system
                                3) By cfire's numbers 1/2 gallon of foam for 6000 gallons of finished foam, with 100 gallons of water (by the way, most times we use less water than that for a one room, room and contents fire)

                                He has stated that in his area insurance companies will gladly pay for the foam. In fact replacing 1/2 gallon by paying for a whole new 5 gallon pail. He further states that in short order you can easily pay for the cost of the CAFs system by the insurance company paying for the foam.

                                Okay if you buy that let's do the math. Let's assume a full $40 for each use of CAFs to replace the foam. Even though we should only be using 1/2 gallon or less by his figures.

                                $25k divided by $40 = 625 fires where you get reimbursed for full pails of foam

                                $50 divided by $40 = 1250 fires where you get reimbursed for full pails of foam

                                If we honestly bill the insurance company and get reimbursed for 1/2 gallon of foam which should be enough to bury the house from the basement to the roof with 6000 gallons of finished foam

                                $25K divided by $5 = 5000 fires

                                $50K divided by $5 = 10,000 fires

                                Golly cfire....does your FD run 5000 to 10,000 fires a year that require 6000 gallons of finished foam? Mine doesn't. And throwing the coal mine fire in is about as relevant to structural firefighting use of CAFs as CAFs is to my original question.


                                PLEASE GO START YOUR OWN CAFs TOPIC!

                                FyredUp
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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