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Class A foam....when to use it?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by voyager9
    regarding the cost argument against foam, can the FD bill the insurance company for the foam used?
    I would say yes. We use to get alot of oilwell fires and would bill the insurance company for our foam. So I don't see why you cant for using it on a house or what not. BE SAFE

    Comment


    • #17
      We use it every time. .5% default on the hale foam pro. If the officer deems it not effective or necessary he can make the call.

      Is the Truck in operation yet?

      Comment


      • #18
        We just bill $200/hr/truck out of district. Or, they can subscribe for $100/yr.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by voyager9
          regarding the cost argument against foam, can the FD bill the insurance company for the foam used?
          YES! Been doing it here for years.
          Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

          IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

          "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
          RUSH-Tom Sawyer

          Success is when skill meets opportunity
          Failure is when fantasy meets reality

          Comment


          • #20
            GPM123....

            More training next week on the pump. Hopefully all equipment mounted this next week and in service by the first of August.

            We did try the rear suction and before we pulled a whirlpool because the suction wasn't in deep enough we were flowing 1190 gpm. We were told by some skeptics we would be lucky to get 700 gpm.

            For the rest of you:

            We did not go CAFS. Honestly saw no need for it. We are in a 95% hydranted area so water is for the most part not a problem. We went with a simple Class A system.

            As for the guy who said they got rid of their tanker because they have CAFs...I am sorry to be so blunt but that is foolish beyond belief. Unless you assume every fire will be put out with that engines tank water. A very dangerous assumption in my opinion.

            I feel we will go for a preset default around .1-.3% for all initial fire attacks.

            FyredUp
            Crazy, but that's how it goes
            Millions of people living as foes
            Maybe it's not too late
            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

            Comment


            • #21
              Class A agent use

              Class A wetting agents should be used on most all fire attacks, in my opinion.

              Of course, 1% for initial attack is usually pretty wasteful. Checking with the manufacturers, you will see that UL has certified most of the good ones at .3%. That saves you 66% of the cost over a 1% use rate.

              And check UL closely, as some of the "listed" class A's only meet the test at 3-6%. That's 18 times more than a .3% usage.

              Check here;

              http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/t...RAME/index.htm

              In the UL catagory code, type GOHR.

              1% is great with mop-up, and virtually eliminates second calls on re-kindles.

              1% is also great on exposure protection or where a protective blanket of foam is needed.

              Now, here is the kicker......

              Class A wetting agent is not the same as class A foam.

              Per UL, they all reduce surface tension, but less than half actually can be forced to foam through mechanical agitation. Check with CAFS users and they will confirm this.

              JT

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              • #22
                I've used it before........

                I' ve used Class A fire on structure fires before and I say use it everytime..... One example of when I used it was a few months ago, I had a well involved FS in the next County over, there was just two of us on the Engine. My FF pulled the 200' preconnect and I gave him a .2% solution of foam..... by the time the first Engine from the other County got onscene, we had the fire under control and went into overhaul operations.
                During overhaul operations, I increased the setting to .8% and our side of the fire was overhauled way before the other Department had there area done.....
                This was no small name Department either, rather they are a HUGE Department here.
                As we were rehabbing, one of the Captains came over and gave us a compliment on how we were the hardest working/hardest charging two man Engine he had seen in a long time.....
                "Be LOUD, Be PROUD..... It just might save your can someday when goin' through an intersection!!!!!"

                Life on the Truck (Quint) is good.....

                Eat til you're sleepy..... Sleep til you're hungry..... And repeat.....

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by FyredUp
                  GPM123....

                  More training next week on the pump. Hopefully all equipment mounted this next week and in service by the first of August.

                  We did try the rear suction and before we pulled a whirlpool because the suction wasn't in deep enough we were flowing 1190 gpm. We were told by some skeptics we would be lucky to get 700 gpm.


                  FyredUp
                  If you're working out of a droptank put a rubber kickball in there and that will stop the whirlpool effect when your water starts to get low.Good luck with your truck.BE SAFE

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dday05
                    If you're working out of a droptank put a rubber kickball in there and that will stop the whirlpool effect when your water starts to get low.Good luck with your truck.BE SAFE
                    Also, clipping a bleach bottle with about a 2' cord to the end of the intake works great too.




                    Kevin
                    Fire Lieutenant/E.M.T.
                    IAFF Local 2339
                    K of C 4th Degree
                    "LEATHER FOREVER"
                    Member I.A.C.O.J.
                    http://www.tfdfire.com/
                    "Fir na tine"

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      We are going to buy a tether ball and pre connect it to the strainer.

                      Training went well tonight and the guys are amazed at the simplicity of this rig. Should be in service next week. Final rquipment mounting this week.

                      Thanks for the answers to my questions.

                      FyredUp
                      Crazy, but that's how it goes
                      Millions of people living as foes
                      Maybe it's not too late
                      To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by FyredUp
                        GPM123....

                        We did not go CAFS. Honestly saw no need for it. We are in a 95% hydranted area so water is for the most part not a problem. We went with a simple Class A system.

                        As for the guy who said they got rid of their tanker because they have CAFs...I am sorry to be so blunt but that is foolish beyond belief. Unless you assume every fire will be put out with that engines tank water. A very dangerous assumption in my opinion.

                        I feel we will go for a preset default around .1-.3% for all initial fire attacks.

                        FyredUp
                        WOW! The wheel of knowledge keeps goin round and round, thank goodness.

                        In the beginning a lot of fire fighters saw no need for foam OR CAFS on wildland or especially structure fires, that was 20 years ago, now I still see a serious lack of understanding with some of the newcomers to the new age of foam.

                        If you have a class a foam system, all you have is treated water and you have to use water tactics including the extra manpower and effort to drag the hoses around, and you will still waste a lot of valuable water that becomes a contaminated run-off problem. You only need .01% for wet water, not .1%, and you will waste foam concentrate if you try to make foam with water or aspirated nozzles that were designed for the foaming agents that are formulated for them. An aspirated foam nozzle should use 3% or 6% concentrate to make good foam, most fire fighters don't realize that the amount of concentrate determines how long the bubbles will last, not how many bubbles it will make. CAFS makes the most bubbles, the bubbles are the result of the friction inside of the fire hose mixing the treated water and air and the bubbles in the center of the hose move like they are running on top of soapy ball bearings that are clinging to the walls of the hose. That's why you can pump CAFS so far, and high. I start my CAFS mixture at .5% and add or subtract as needed for durable foam for exposures or fast draining foam for attack, I adjust the water volume to make wet or dry foam depending on the application.

                        As for selling the tanker? hmmmm, I usually get my CAFS called for mutuall aid because the local city fire departments around the Fort worth Dallas area are running out of water in the city systems or they don't want the pollution to run off into the lakes and streams, the CAFS foam stays where we put it and soaks in or evaporates with no additional clean-up needed. When we show up, the tankers are usually sent back to the station and the water shuttle stops. My CAFS flows 1,383.8 gpm of foam through 1.75 inch hose and uses only 40-60 gpm of water on most structure fires.
                        There are some new CAFS ideas being developed for the fire departments that don't want to mess with adding the compressors to their water pumpers. Hope this helps.
                        Mark Cummins

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          to foam....or not to foam!!!

                          We use foam here for many different things. We have a foam injector on our brush truck, and use it on all brush fires-- .1% - .9%. We carry an eductor on our pumpers, and use 3% class B for tank fires at oil storage facilities. Our rescue truck has a 50 gal. stored energy CAFS, which we pre-mix 3% class B for use on anything we need it for, but especially petroleum based fires. We have used the foam on rescue for covering a smoldering trailer house. And it also works really well for rescuing people from killer-bee attacks.

                          Our reasoning on using foam on brush and structure fires, is reducing the rekindle rate. In 10 years, we have not had a single one, except for being caused by high winds. We also use light - water in our tanks for hay fires. (I guess light water is considered foam)
                          A mutual aid dept. has 3 brush trucks equipped with reote controlled monitors mounted on front bumpers, and they also have foam injectors, so they are used at hay fires as well.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by cfire3
                            WOW! The wheel of knowledge keeps goin round and round, thank goodness. It certainly does and yet so does the wheel of propanganda.

                            In the beginning a lot of fire fighters saw no need for foam OR CAFS on wildland or especially structure fires, that was 20 years ago, now I still see a serious lack of understanding with some of the newcomers to the new age of foam. We have been using Class A foam with and without aerated nozzles for the better part of a decade. Initially for wildland firefighting and then in overhaul for structural firefighting. We are well aware of it's abilities and how to use it effectiviely.

                            If you have a class a foam system, all you have is treated water and you have to use water tactics including the extra manpower and effort to drag the hoses around, and you will still waste a lot of valuable water that becomes a contaminated run-off problem. You only need .01% for wet water, not .1%, and you will waste foam concentrate if you try to make foam with water or aspirated nozzles that were designed for the foaming agents that are formulated for them. Look, there are DOZENS of FD's in my area using Class A foam. We all use it in a similar manner at a .1 to .3% mix. I am sorry your FD doesn;t give you the manpower to efficiently stretch 1 3/4 inch hoselines, my career FD does (Class A foam) and my volly usues 2 inch with the new rig having Class A foam.An aspirated foam nozzle should use 3% or 6% concentrate to make good foam, most fire fighters don't realize that the amount of concentrate determines how long the bubbles will last, not how many bubbles it will make. Here in lies YOUR confusion, Class A foam fire attack isn't used in structural firefighting to make bubbles, it is used as a surface tension breaker to allow better penetration and to make the water more effective to prevent rekindle. NOT as a blamketing agent. CAFS makes the most bubbles, the bubbles are the result of the friction inside of the fire hose mixing the treated water and air and the bubbles in the center of the hose move like they are running on top of soapy ball bearings that are clinging to the walls of the hose. That's why you can pump CAFS so far, and high. I start my CAFS mixture at .5% and add or subtract as needed for durable foam for exposures or fast draining foam for attack, I adjust the water volume to make wet or dry foam depending on the application. And unlike your subtle, or perhaps not so subtle, attack on our decision not to go CAFs I woun't attack your decision. If it works for you GREAT. In the 5 county area surrounding us I can count the number of CAFs engines and not reach 20 total. There is not a single major metro politan FD in our area with CAFs. The one that did have it quit using it and all new engines have Class A foam without CAFs.

                            As for selling the tanker? I don't care how good your CAFs system is if you as a salesperson (and I don't know if you are or aren't this is purely hypothetical) came into the rural areas of our county and tried to tell these FDs that a single CAFs pumper would replace their tankers I am afraid you would be laughed right out the door. Even the FDs that have CAFs have kept their tankers. hmmmm, I usually get my CAFS called for mutuall aid because the local city fire departments around the Fort worth Dallas area are running out of water in the city systems or they don't want the pollution to run off into the lakes and streams, the CAFS foam stays where we put it and soaks in or evaporates with no additional clean-up needed. When we show up, the tankers are usually sent back to the station and the water shuttle stops. Uh huh, whatever...because your CAFs pumper manufacturers it's own water to make foam? Please...if you are sending back tankers then in my mind you are being called for CAFs to bury a building in foam that has essentially burned down and they want the overhaul done with foam. My CAFS flows 1,383.8 gpm of foam through 1.75 inch hose and uses only 40-60 gpm of water on most structure fires. Gosh, on the last 2 structure fires we had I think we used 200 gallons total with no foam and saved what $20 to $50k on a CAFs system.
                            There are some new CAFS ideas being developed for the fire departments that don't want to mess with adding the compressors to their water pumpers. Hope this helps. And all of those systems I have seen include carrying large capacity air cylinders for the compressed air versus a compressor.
                            Look I'll say it again...If CAFs works for you and others GREAT. It does NOT however make it the answer for everyone. Especially cash strapped FD's that can't afford that extra money added to a new rig.

                            You sound like the Darley sales guy we had in who insulted my entire FD when we told him we didn't want CAFs. We wanted a Class A system for our 2 inch high flow low pressure attack lines. He basically called us an excessive damage FD that fought fire in an obselete manner. Guess who didn't get the truck sale?

                            By the way your comment about saving the city FD's....you didn;t sprain your shoulder patting yourself on the back did you? It's a joke son, don't get your panties in a wad.

                            FyredUp
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by FyredUp
                              It's a joke son, don't get your panties in a wad.

                              FyredUp
                              Please don't get me wrong, I know that CAFS is not for everyone, and I appologize if I have offended your decision not to spend the outrageous amount of money to have CAFS on your pumper. In fact I agree they are overpriced.

                              But, there are some new things happening with CAFS that might influence future decisions. There are State Forest Services that are giving fire departments free foam to fight rural fires because it's proven to do more with less, and saves more lives and property than most everything else they supply. That's your tax dollars coming back to you. Some of them cost share the CAFS apparatus for fire departments. And insurance companies are beginning to recognize CAFS puts the fire out faster and saves more insured damage so they are offering premium discounts and ISO reductions, they aren't doing this with other foam equipment or class A foam/wet water hardware. Most mortaged property is covered by fire insurance and will cover the cost of foam applications. Bottom line is, CAFS can pay it's own way now.

                              And as for High flow 2 inch water applications, I commend your ability to get it into the house fire. By the way, it doesn't matter if it has the foam in it or not because when it hits the walls and furniture it still runs off so fast it doesn't have time to soak in, it'll be runnin down the street and into the water shed where it will deposit all the toxic by-products of combustion it picked up on the way. It might be nice if the home owner had a choice of putting the fire out faster with CAFS. I'm sorry, it's just a fact that CAFS could work for you too.
                              Mark Cummins

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by cfire3
                                Please don't get me wrong, I know that CAFS is not for everyone, and I appologize if I have offended your decision not to spend the outrageous amount of money to have CAFS on your pumper. In fact I agree they are overpriced. This is where you should have stopped with this post. I will do my best to be polite in responding to the rest of your sales pitch, but I make no promises.

                                But, there are some new things happening with CAFS that might influence future decisions. There are State Forest Services that are giving fire departments free foam to fight rural fires because it's proven to do more with less, and saves more lives and property than most everything else they supply. NOT HERE. That's your tax dollars coming back to you. Some of them cost share the CAFS apparatus for fire departments. And insurance companies are beginning to recognize CAFS puts the fire out faster and saves more insured damage Golly, I guess I'll tell the insurance agent who praised us after our last call for doing so little water damage that he is an uneducated fool. Water damage is not the fault of the nozzle, or hose size or even the flow...it is the fault of poorly trained nozzle operators who fail to shut the nozzle off when there is no more fire. so they are offering premium discounts and ISO reductions, they aren't doing this with other foam equipment or class A foam/wet water hardware. Most mortaged property is covered by fire insurance and will cover the cost of foam applications. Bottom line is, CAFS can pay it's own way now. Uh huh...tell me exactly how many structure fires where I use, let's make it a nice even number, 5 gallons of CAFs foam, it would take for the insurance company to pay for my CAFs installation? Let's assume $50K for the install of the CAFs.

                                And as for High flow 2 inch water applications, I commend your ability to get it into the house fire. By the way, it doesn't matter if it has the foam in it or not because when it hits the walls and furniture it still runs off so fast it doesn't have time to soak in Really? Gosh, I guess I'll go back and tell the houses we overhauled using bubble cup nozzles and class A foam that they are really not there they burned to the ground or were destroyed by water damage. , it'll be runnin down the street and into the water shed where it will deposit all the toxic by-products of combustion it picked up on the way. Look, maybe this is hard for you to understand, but a high flow line doesn't mean out of control water flows. All it means is more is available for killing the fire faster. If YOUR FD had water running out the door at every fire that is a training issue. I can honestly tell you the that in almost 30 years on my volly FD I have seen that maybe half a dozen times. It might be nice if the home owner had a choice of putting the fire out faster with CAFS. I'm sorry, it's just a fact that CAFS could work for you too. Tell me, who do you sell for? Be honest.
                                I am going to type this very slowly so maybe it will sink in this time....If you are happy with your CAFs system I am happy for you. It was deemed something we did not want to spend the money on. We would have had to give up too many other things in order to do that that we felt were far more important to us.

                                I am not criticizing YOUR decision to buy CAFs and my original question had NOTHING to do with CAFs so why are you even posting your CAFs propagnada here? It is not relevant to the topic. My question was and still is about a simple Class A foam system. If you have nothing helpful to add to that discussion please go start your own "I LOVE CAFs" topic.

                                FyredUp
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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