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  • #16
    Originally posted by MattyJ
    But for some to suggest it happens EVERY time we see each other, really just dont know what they're talking about.
    Just wondering who you think might have been suggesting that this happens EVERY time?
    Do it because you love it, not because you love being seen doing it.

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    • #17
      Call me lazy, but I know that if at 3AM, on January 3rd, when it's -5 degrees below zero, wind chill is around -25, and the snow's blowing, and I were to roll up to an accident in my rescue and see a bunch of wanta-be firefighters working, I'd promptly roll down my window, lean my head out, ask if they needed help, then roll it back up and crank the heater up...


      All kidding aside:

      They do provide some very helpful services for their own branch. Imagine if they called a Rescue company out every time they wanted to cut through some security bars or what not.

      Plus, I can't think of many firefighters that want to be forcing entry into a building under fire from a sniper or something like that. Let the crazy folks who carry their own guns handle it. Now, the day the NYPD starts laying hose and stretching lines, I'll be concerned.

      Couple things to remember:

      1. If they want to waste their finite funds on duplicate services instead of putting out more beat cops and detectives, it's their's to waste.

      2. People love firefighters. People adore firefighters. People generally hate cops and try to shoot at them.
      Last edited by SpartanGuy; 02-27-2005, 06:03 PM.
      "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

      Safety is no accident.

      Comment


      • #18
        Patrick,
        As a London Officer who has been lucky enough to spend a fair bit of time with FDNY you can imagine the way my Jaw dropped when I heard about the ESU.

        No it would never be tolerated in the UK and it has been tried, certain Motorway Police forces tried to carry basic RTA gear back in the 70's..porto power and all that...it was soon stopped. However, politics in the US and in NYC in particualr are much more complex with state and citywide legislation. Firefighters are paid at different rates depending on where they work...equipment is different. There is none of the Standardisation that we have in the UK...that makes life very easy to sort out issues when they are so black and white.

        I have attended a couple of RTAs..or MVAs in NYC... and on both occasions NYPD obviously attended but the ESU was nowhere to be seen, although I did see the documentary you are talking about and I was furious.

        There are some amazing similarities between Firefighting in the US and UK,...certainly with urban Firefighting...but also some stark differences, such as Tactics and equipment... Some to our advantage some to our US Brothers & Sisters advantage.
        Steve Dude
        IACOJ member
        www.fireservice.co.uk

        London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


        'Irony'... It's a British thing.

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        • #19
          Steve,
          I think UK cops need to start worrying about carrying guns instead of Hurst toos


          Sorry, couldn't resist.
          "Captain 1 to control, retone this as a structure and notify the fire chief...."

          Safety is no accident.

          Comment


          • #20
            To suggest that NYPD ESU are wanna-be FF is patently unfair. Try to understand what others, who actually know what they are talking about, are saying.

            There are a dozen law enforcement functions that they do for every cross-over job that might duplicate a FD service. There are search warrants, weapons and shots fired calls, EDP removals, civil evictions, searches, and on and on and on. They are among the best trained copsin the country. But they certainly are NOT wanna-be FF.
            PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by SpartanGuy
              Steve,
              I think UK cops need to start worrying about carrying guns instead of Hurst toos


              Sorry, couldn't resist.

              You'd be surprised...although officially a cop walking down the street still doesn't carry a gun, ther are more and more 'Trojan' units (Gun Cars) than ever now... Our crime and disorder figures are an absolute epidemic...gun crime is a nightmare in some areas...
              I have a Newspaper cutting in my Office (I work within the Borough of Hackney in East London) it say; "OFFICIAL; HACKNEY GUN CRIME IS WORSE THAT SOWETO"

              So, with Police walking the street not armed but lots of cars armed...it's no surprise that you don't often see the Police walking around anymore but do see hundreds in cars!!!!

              Londons Police Commissioner has said on record..."If one more of my Officers get shot, I will arm every one of them"

              Amazingly there are a lot of Cops who don't want to be armed though?
              Steve Dude
              IACOJ member
              www.fireservice.co.uk

              London Fire Brigade...."Can Do"


              'Irony'... It's a British thing.

              Comment


              • #22
                Face it, with all due respect to FDNY, NYC is a mess. How many different emergency service agencies are there? FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, Transit Authority, vollies, hospital based ambulances. Am I forgeting anyone? For a city that always seems to have budget problems, the duplication of services just seems silly.
                Fire Marshal/Safety Officer

                IAAI-NFPA-IAFC/VCOS-Retired IAFF

                "No his mind is not for rent, to any god or government"
                RUSH-Tom Sawyer

                Success is when skill meets opportunity
                Failure is when fantasy meets reality

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Dave1983
                  Face it, with all due respect to FDNY, NYC is a mess. How many different emergency service agencies are there? FDNY, NYPD, Port Authority, Transit Authority, vollies, hospital based ambulances. Am I forgeting anyone? For a city that always seems to have budget problems, the duplication of services just seems silly.
                  Man.. I'm afraid that's how we see it down here.. up there.. on the other hand, they seem to go along with it.
                  Do it because you love it, not because you love being seen doing it.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Yup, NYC is a mess. How did I ever get talked into working here?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      "these occurences must happen with some consistency, otherwise there wouldnt be such harsh annomosity"......thats where I got it from.
                      Yeah...NYC is a "mess". 8 million people, thousands of miles of street, hundreds of thousands of buildings,hundreds of miles of subway, millions of cars, hundreds of miles of waterfront,2 Major airports, dozens of major bridges, thousands of highrises, thousands of miles of underground utilities, major terrorist target....etc.....yeah we are a mess!! Actually I'd say that Fire, Police and Ems do a pretty good job in this city..all things considered!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Before I got on the FDNY I was, like many, a NYPD officer. The cop on the street who actually wears a shield is accountable to everyone, the blue menace in the little white truck has ZERO accountability and answers only to an ESU "supervisor" who's job is to threaten arrest to any who dare challenge his men.
                        First off let's get something straight, many of the problems between ESU and FDNY boil down to male insecurities. They have good guys and we have good guys, same goes for knuckleheads!
                        We have over 150 units in the field with full extrication equipment AND 5 firefighters and an officer responding to operate it, not to mention the engine company providing fire supression and EMS duties, they show up with 2 "cops" in shirtsleeves and ball caps to extricate and "treat" the patient. If those two "cops" confirm a pin the rest of the units who feel like coming come, there is no set boundary line, no maximum # of units.
                        I once asked an ESU LT. who would respond to a COP's call for help in another part of the boro since he had 5 of the 6 ESU units in the Bronx operating at a pin job in the City of Yonkers!
                        They have no business doing MVA's, building collapses, Haz Mat, confined space, rope jobs...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Sounds like a complex "mess" there. For all the guys from NY, do you feel that the duplication has a time and a place where it is helpfull?

                          As far as the post about all the different agencies, when you have a city of that magnitude, where the different areas of responsibility are so enourmous, what's wrong with having seperate agencies?? Transit cops for the subways, etc...... They know the area well, understand the specific challenges better, and are there all the time. It is really no different than having a Detective Bureau, Patrol, etc in the PD. Or, Suppression, EMS in the FD.
                          I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
                          "Chet, get an inch and a half on that!"

                          "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            1835... I wasn't trying to say that there was anything "wrong" with having units that focus on certain areas... BUT it does become a problem when they don't appear to all be on the same page about what their responsibilities are, don't communicate with each other, and have seemingly meaningless turf-wars. To me, it just gives the image of "Too many Chiefs, not enough Indians." If one agency feels the need to be the center of attention, then it seems to mess up the flow of things.
                            Do it because you love it, not because you love being seen doing it.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              True, but maybe the Blue card system will help that out.........If NY employs it!
                              I.A.C.O.J. Charter Member
                              "Chet, get an inch and a half on that!"

                              "Not for fame or reward,Not for place or rank. Not lured by ambition or goaded by necessity. But in simple obedience to duty as they understood it. These men suffered,sacrificed,dared all, and died. Let us never forget our fallen friends."

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                You know you might not like it..

                                But when have Police and Fire ever gotten along 100% of the time. Thats goes for every city, town, county village etc. Half of the Deputies are Vollies here. But we still disagree at time with them. You going to have disagreements. Not saying the FDNY and ESU is a great thing to be doing. All I am saying is if you are making the claim that they are the only department in the world that doesn't always see eye to eye with the police. I want to move there.
                                Thanks
                                DM
                                ___________
                                "I am telling the truth, I was driving through the warehouse and the wall jumped in front of my fork lift. I honked the horn and it never listened."

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