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Poor Decision in Sugar Grove, PA

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  • #46
    Stir the pot a little more....

    Did any one read what Ex. Asst Chief had to say? It was like you saw he had posted and figured he must be grinding his ax and didn't bother to read what he had to say.

    Sure he disobeyed an order, and yes he might have put himself and the 4 others in a liability issue taking the truck out of the district. But let me ask you this. If you can't trust a guy to drive a truck, non-emergency to a funeral, how in heck to you trust him driving, lights and siren, to a call? To make my point clear, YOU CAN'T. If you can trust a guy to drive the truck around your district, you should be able to drive it anywhere.

    Now some one points out to me, "But what about the people he has a duty to protect?" Unless he is lying, It don't even matter cause there'd be no driver any way.

    Of course i don't even have all the facts,i'm just going on what i read.

    Do i think they should have been expelled? No. Do i think they disobeyed an order? Yes Should there have been a different type of punishment? Yes.



    ------------------
    Put the wet stuff on the red stuff
    Visit our Dept. Schodack Valley
    Steve Kelly Jr.
    SVFC

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Kelly Tool:
      Stir the pot a little more....

      But let me ask you this. If you can't trust a guy to drive a truck, non-emergency to a funeral, how in heck to you trust him driving, lights and siren, to a call? To make my point clear, YOU CAN'T. If you can trust a guy to drive the truck around your district, you should be able to drive it anywhere.


      I don't give a rat's arse if the guy had it put on a flatbed trailer and taken there. Trusting someones driving habits are not the issues here.

      Don't do the crime , if you can't do the time

      Comment


      • #48
        FFE Talk about sticking to the subject... I beleive this all started as to whether expulsion was the the correct punishment.

        Alot have gone off in many was in this topic, including myself.

        All 5 of us regret what has happened and wish we could go back and do it a different.

        But as Kelly Tool stated, and we believe, expulsion was not the best course of action

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        • #49
          Originally posted by FFE3BFD:
          I don't give a rat's arse if the guy had it put on a flatbed trailer and taken there. Trusting someones driving habits are not the issues here.

          Don't do the crime , if you can't do the time

          Being a limey, couldn't have said it better myself

          Kelly Tool, you're missing the point. Nobody doubts whether he can drive the truck or not. This boils down to blatantly disobeying a Chief's order. What else is there to look at. Regardless of why the Chief decided as he did, they, and I quote 'Unamimously voted' to disobey a direct order.

          fiemanjc, regardless of the slight tangents that some posters may have gone off on, I would ask you to explain what rationale you had to blatantly disobey the Chief.

          Comment


          • #50
            FFE3BFD:
            I'm glad you pointed out that driving skill was not the issue, unfortunately you didn't point out what was the issue. Luckly iwood51 pointed out for you.

            iwood51:
            I agree with you that they disobeyed an order by the Cheif. That is a fact. But the thing i believe that IS wrong is how the punishement went down.

            In an age where we all need help, kicking people out isn't the brightest idea, is it? The Chief could have just as easily suspended the people involved and had a hearing to decide further. There are other options, and a good leader should know that. Am i correct in this or am i missing something?

            ------------------
            Put the wet stuff on the red stuff
            Visit our Dept. Schodack Valley
            Steve Kelly Jr.
            SVFC

            Comment


            • #51
              Yes, Kelly Tool, I think you're missing something. If the five were suspended would they return with an adjusted attitude? It doesn't sound like it.

              We're all just Monday morning quarterbacking with limited information but if I pulled this stunt I would expect to turn in my gear as soon as I got back with the truck.

              [This message has been edited by Ten8_Ten19 (edited 02-01-2001).]

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              • #52
                Steve,

                I hate to keep harping on this, but what those five fire fighters did, in essence, was steal a public vehicle. They did not have permission to use it from neither the Chief, nor the officials the Chief answers to. By all rights, at the time they noticed the vehicle missing, the Chief or any City official could have called law enforcement, and had them picked up for theft. They misused public property, funds, and trust. I think they got off pretty light, as opposed to what could have happened to them.

                I wonder how you, as an individual would have felt if they asked to borrow your vehicle, and you told them no. They decided to ignore you, and took it anyway. I'd be willing to bet one of the first calls you make is to a deputy. They don't own that vehicle, it belongs to the public entity they support.

                You know I have to wonder also, if a volunteer went to the Asst. Chief and asked him if they could use it to visit a fellow fire fighter in the next town over, and he said no, but they took it anyway, what his reaction would have been.

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                • #53
                  Kelly Tool: I think that you missed the point and FFE3BFD hit it dead on with his:

                  [QUOTE]Originally posted by FFE3BFD:

                  Don't do the crime , if you can't do the time

                  Those are words to live by in the fire service and the real world.I honestly can't believe that this concept is so hard to grasp. As well as not having a driver for the trucks that does seem a little odd doesn't it? Having a bunch of equipment that only one or two people can operate? IF that is the case then these guys really should be apoligizing not only to the chief and the other department members but to the citizens of their community as this act of insubordination has put their homes, businesses and lives in danger.As well they expected to receive disciplinary action and guess what? THEY GOT IT!!!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I truly do understand what motivated these firefighters to take the apparatus to the fellow firefighter's service. The LODD of a brother or sister is an emotional thing. I am sorry that their Chief did not see fit to have another department cover their district so they could take the apparatus with permission. But I don't think it is necessary to show up driving an engine to show your support. Is going in your own personal vehicle any less supportive??? Did all of us drive a fire apparatus to Worcester???

                    An order from the Chief is an order! They effectively stole the vehicle and took it out of district, leaving the people of that community less protected. It was inexcusable. There is no room for this behavior in the fire service. It was wrong and the punishment fit the crime.

                    They knew there would be repercussions for their actions and they should accept them with grace instead of trying to make excuses for what they did.

                    ***These opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the department I serve.***

                    ------------------
                    Stay Safe...
                    Rebecca Richardson FF/EMT
                    Isles of Capri Fire Rescue
                    South Florida



                    [This message has been edited by ladyfirefighter (edited 02-01-2001).]

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                    • #55
                      This is for Kelly Tool and the Ex Asst. Chief that screwed up.

                      If you will go back to the first page of this thread, you will see that I stated that an order is an order and it should be followed. So before you think I'm not getting the point go back and read. You blantaly disobeyed this order.

                      Is what the Chief Oaks did leagal?, Yes.

                      Is taking the apparatus without permission? No, it's called theft.

                      Now suffer the consequences. You screwed up, Not Chief Oaks.

                      Kelly Tool, You brought up the word "Trust". Chief Oaks trusted that his order would (and should be) followed. It wasn't! You are also the one that went off on the tangent about trusting a guy to drive in their district as well as not in district.
                      So what's your Point??

                      Was there a Poor Decision made in Sugar Grove PA. Yes , and it was made by 5 people that voted to disobey a direct order.


                      [This message has been edited by FFE3BFD (edited 02-02-2001).]

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        May we pray that this is a situation that we are never faced with.

                        God bless the families and members of all those involved.

                        I think there is soooooo much more involved
                        with this matter that we, the outsiders will never know. This makes it is almost impossible for us to make a decision.

                        BUT!!! They violated a direct order, right or not, it was a vaild order and issued by the Fire Chief. Maybe there were other avenues they could have/ should have explored. But it sounds like they didn't.

                        They took the pumper against the order of the Fire Chief, and for that they will have to pay the piper.

                        As for the Fire Chief, he has made his decision(s) and he too will have to pay the piper.

                        ------------------

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Firemanjc
                          Maybe the punishment was to harsh for the others who were following your lead as Asst Chief to take the first due piece. Maybe they should have been suspended, unless they held any officer rank within the department. As for yourself,and any officer in the group of 5, should be dismissed effective immediately. You set an extremely unprofessional example to subordinates in your department especially to any rookie members that you may have had.

                          The Chief may have been in office for only a week at the time of the decision, regardless he was put in that position for a reason, whether voted in by your membership or appinted through merit.

                          The Fire Service adopted a paramilitary structure for a reason. Discipline and control. An Order is an ORDER, to be followed whether or not we agree. That is how the system works, like it or not.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            From what I read in other threads about this subject, the town where the funeral was held in was about an hours drive from Sugar Grove, so the distance traveled may have been anywhere from 30 to 60 miles away from the village of Sugar Grove.

                            There's a new fire chief, the assitant chief was one of the parties involved...it sounds like there is a power struggle going on, doesn't it?

                            The 5 firefighters in question violated an order from the Chief. Some people have said expulsion from the company is too harsh...but have their been other infractions of the rules and regulations by the individuals involved that we do not know about?

                            There is also the question of liability. What would have happened if the truck was involved in an accident while en route to or coming back the funeral? This is another question that has to be answered.

                            The Chief made the proper decision. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The "Sugar Grove 5" initiated the confrontation, now they must pay the price.

                            ------------------
                            And on the eighth day...God created Firefighters!
                            Captain Gonzo


                            [This message has been edited by Captain Gonzo (edited 02-03-2001).]

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                            • #59
                              an oldie .............but good for debate

                              so punishment to harsh ? ..........WWYD ?
                              IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
                              Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
                              ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
                              RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
                              LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
                              I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
                              "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
                              http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                My opinion expressed on February 3rd, 2001 on this matter hasn't changed a bit!
                                ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
                                Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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