What size preconnects do you prefer?

[THE NCFD]

I bring this up because of the previous subject of number and size of preconnects on rigs. I am asking now what size do you prefer to fight a fire with. We personnaly utilize 1.75" on all of our rigs. All of the departments in this area use 1.75" with the exception of one and they use 1" booster line to fight structure fires.
YES that is right... booster line...
What is your favorite and what is your opinion on the sizes.

------------------
Grant Mishoe
Engineer, Station #4
North Charleston F.D.
THENCFD Online!

[15hoseman]

I believe that 1" booster line is pretty much the standard in Great Britain. I had also heard a rumor that that grand old city of the south, Charleston, S.C. still used them, is that the department you were referring to?

My department, the District of Columbia Fire Department, uses 1 1/2" lines almost exclusively. we have 100', 200', and 400' (+/- 50') preconnect. We use an Akron constant flow 125 gpm @ 100 psi nozzle, pumped at 30 psi per 100'. I believe this actually gets us around 115 gpm. I believe that this has been effective for us because the vast majority of our fire can be put out one room at a time. The department goes to a fair bit of fire and usually puts them out pretty quickly.

I think with the smaller line, we have chosen a speed over volume method. I can't remember how fast a fuel limited fire doubles in size, but say it's once every 30 seconds. If that's the case, my 115 gpm now is worth more than your 200 gpm half a minute later. If the whole room is involved, the NFA says that 57.5 gallons from my 115 gpm line can handle up to an 18.5' x 18.5' room. That's a pretty big room for most buildings. If the back up company gets there before i put it out, we can handle twice that.

So this department that uses 1" probably flows about 60 gpm. That 60 gpm is about as effective as my handline is, if they can get it in service 30 seconds faster. But they can only handle up to 12x15' room - kinda iffy if you ask me. But it's probably not too much of a problem for them to get two lines in so they can handle a 24'x15' room.

I can't say either way.

I can say that, should someone want to sue them, for a death perhaps, all of the literature on american firefighting says at least 1.5" at least 95 gpm. Some say at least 1.75" and 150 gpm. Who know?

BTW: has that city burned down yet?

[THE NCFD]

Yes the City of Charleston is who I was refering to. They are an excellent department!! They have achieved and I.S.O. Class 1 rating. They also have 2 booster lines per truck and are very aggressive. This is not to say that the other departments are not as aggressive, however I feel much better knowing that I have a larger preconnect, especially when there is hardly anymore effdort in carrying the line. I am not knocking these fellows in Charleston. They are some of the best around, especially in the Penisula. No the City has not burned down yet... although they have had the opportunity a time or two or three or four in the past few years.

[SFD-129-3]

Primarily 1.75" x 200' preconnects with tft breakaway tips. Also the standard 200' 2.5", variable stream on the engine, straight bore on the quint. Also a 200' 2" straight bore on the quint.

[Raptor557]

two 1.5" pre-connect crosslays (200ft.) and 2.5" pre-connect (250ft.) out of the hose bed.

[FyredUp]

200'-1" forestry hose with a Scotty foam system attached

100'-1 3/4" trash line 200gpm at 75 psi nozzle

2-200'-2" lines with 200 at 75 psi break-a-part nozzles with a 1 1/4" smoothbore slug tip

1-300'-2" with the same nozzle as above

200'-3" connected to a Stinger with stacked tips

1-Dead lay bed of 300'-3" with a wye and 100'-2" with the above nozzle

Our guys like this set-up,

FyredUp

[SFDE12]

We run with two (2) 1.75 inch preconnects (one is 200FT, the other 250FT). Most of our newwer rigs also have a 200FT preconnected 2.5 inch, all run with TFT nozzles.

[N34BLACKADDER]

first out pump is 200' 1 1/2 booster, 150' 1 3/4" with a smoothbore preconnect and 150' 2" preconnect in the crosslays, 2 200' 1 3/4" with TFT preconnect and 200" 2 1/2" with smoothbore off the back. 2nd pump is the same w/o booster and 2 1/2" is preconnect with another 200" in the bed. Quint is 200' 1 3/4" TFT, 2 200' 1 3/4" with smoothbore and 200' 2 1/2" with smoothbore, all preconnect in crosslays. What comes off the truck depends on situation. 2" for car fire, and 1 3/4" or 2 1/2" for structure.

[This message has been edited by N34BLACKADDER (edited 01-23-2001).]

[EUitts]

As a generalization without getting into the math of fire flows, etc.:
Big Fire, Big Line (2.5")
Small Fire, Small Line (1.75")

Everyone has brought up some very valid points here. I think the key is to carry a varied assortment of hose sizes, nozzles, foam systems, etc. so that you can adapt to whatever situation you might come up against, considering fire hazards, staffing, etc. and then know how to recognize what is the best choice for a particular situation. As creatures of habit, I think sometimes we get ourselves into certain mindsets such as always pulling the 1.75" when we really should be pulling the 2.5" right from the start.

[ME93]

On my engine we use:
1-1 3/4 bumper line 150'
2-1 3/4 crosslays 200' one with TFT and other with smooth bore
1-2" blitz line 200'
1-yard lay 200' of 2" with a gated wye with one preconnect 1 3/4 150'

These are all preconnected.

------------------
Fishers Fire Dept.
FF/Medic
Local 416

[This message has been edited by ME93 (edited 01-24-2001).]

[dmstreet]

We have two different makes/vintages of pumper(county government at its best), carrying slightly different hose loads. The first-line piece has all rear-loaded lines, with two 1.75" primary attack lines(200 ft each), and one 2.5" line(150 ft) with a gated wye which is changed out for a smooth bore when needed. Additionally, we have a 50-ft section of 1.75" as a bumper line, and the usual 1" booster line(150 ft.) On the second piece, we have two 1.75" crosslays(200 ft each), a rear-loaded 2.5" line(200ft.) with a gated wye like the first-line engine, and a right-side running board tray loaded with 100ft of 1.75".

Capt. Don Street
Maryland City VFD (Anne Arundel Co. 27)
Laurel, MD

[This message has been edited by dmstreet (edited 01-24-2001).]

[Neptune 33]

My Departments First Due Engine has:
4 - 1 3/4 Crosslays, 400' Each 1 on Chauffers side, 3 on officers

1 - 1 3/4 preconnect in front bumper (400')

3 - 2 1/2 crosslays 1 200' 2 400'

1500' 5"

1750 pump, 1250 tank

Our Second Due Engine (Supply) but can use be used as attack

2 - 1 3/4 crosslays 400' 1 on either side
1 - 2 1/2 Crosslay 200' officers side
1 - 1" Booster
200' 3" Supply
2100' 5" supply
200' 2 1/2 for tanker fills

1000gpm 1000tank

You may say that's a lot of preconnects on the first due, but we can operate self sufficent at a structure fire. This is due to a lack of manpower from our mutual aid, they have at least a 8 minute response times at some times.

[Buck]

///I can't remember how fast a fuel limited fire doubles in size, but say it's once every 30 seconds.///

Show me a creditable source that will put that in writing.

///So this department that uses 1" probably flows about 60 gpm.///

How about 150 gpm

///What size of preconnect do I prefer?///

The smallest line that will effectively handle the fire at hand.

/// I feel much better knowing that I have a larger preconnect, especially when there is hardly anymore effdort in carrying the line. ///

Say what? You got to be kidding!

Buck

[THE NCFD]

///I can't remember how fast a fuel limited fire doubles in size, but say it's once every 30 seconds.///

Show me a creditable source that will put that in writing.

**I think he was using that as an example. You can't determine how fast a room is going to burn because you do not know a fire load. I think he was using this figure as a "for instance" situation.

///So this department that uses 1" probably flows about 60 gpm.///

How about 150 gpm

**PLEASE show me a nozzle, automatic or otherwise that will flow 150 gpm! Auto nozzles on 1" at best will flow 125gpm with HUGE Friction loss. At 125gpm flowing through 150' of 1" booster your friction loss is over 350PSI!!!

///What size of preconnect do I prefer?///

The smallest line that will effectively handle the fire at hand.

**The original question was: "what size do you prefer to fight a fire with?" Now this is slightly broad in nature, but overall I think the major mindset was what size lines do you prefer to fight a structure fire with. Being that most rigs carry a booster (1"), a few larger pre-connects (1.5" to 1.75") and big attack lines (2.5" to 3.0") I think it would be safe to say that the smallest line you could use would be the booster. Being that this is mainly used for trash fires and the occasional small car fire, why would you even explore the idea of using this line for anything other than these options. EXAMPLE: Lets say you pull up on a fire in the kitchen of a house. You got good smoke production. You know that this fire may get larger if you do not get on top of it. WHY would you pull the booster line off, even if you had the chance of putting it out, you may need bigger water. So why not go with the LARGER preconnect and be done with it. If you have someone on the knob that knows how to work the line, your water damage will be minimal compared to flowing water through the booster until the fire EVENTUALLY goes out or it burns to you. Then you get into the world of property conservation. The quicker the fire goes out the less damage to the rest of the residence. There are many different factors to look at. One thing is FOR SURE... and that is it is better to have a larger preconnect and not need it than get your butt in a bind with a booster and need more water. I think that a majority of the Firefighting community will agree.


/// I feel much better knowing that I have a larger preconnect, especially when there is hardly anymore effort in carrying the line. ///

Say what? You got to be kidding!

**I think this one was answered in detail above. However let me clarify myself. I was speaking of course with the difference between your booster compared to your 1.5" and 1.75" preconnects. Yes booster line is light and manuverable and 1.5" and 1.75" is a little heavier, but for the protection the larger preconnects offer, the weight and manuverability differences, in my mind, are minimal.

Now I think this matter has been thoroughly disected.... lets go onto another topic.

Hey Buck, I got a question for you. Do you work or volunteer for a fire department and if so what kind of preconnects do you use? Now if you are with the Magnolia, Texas FD I am wondering what kind of hose they have on those commercial chassis'.



------------------
Grant Mishoe
Engineer, Station #4
North Charleston F.D.
THENCFD Online!

[Buck]

///You can't determine how fast a room is going to burn because you do not know a fire load. ///

Exactly!

///1" at best will flow 125gpm with HUGE friction loss.///

use 150' of 1.75" with 40' of 1" as a stinger and you will not have much friction loss. As for Charleston FD I do not know what they use. All I was saying is that don't limit yourself on how much water you think will come out of a 1" line.

/// "what size do you prefer to fight a fire with?" Now this is slightly broad in nature, but overall I think the major mindset was what size lines do you prefer to fight a structure fire with.///

Like I said, the smallest line that will effectively handle the fire at hand. If it requires a 2.5", I like to use the 2.5". If it requires a 1.5" or 1.75" I like that size.

I see too many departments that use 1.75" and 2" and never take their nozzle off of the 95 or 125 gpm setting. That doesn't make any sense, if that is all the water you want then use a 1.5" or a 1" stinger.

///the smallest line you could use would be the booster. Being that this is mainly used for trash fires and the occasional small car fire, why would you even explore the idea of using this line for anything other than these options.///

If it is set up to do higher flows it can be used very effectively and a whole lot more maneuverable. But with your mind set being that it will only do 60 gpm at best I have to ask, Why do you use a 1" on the occasional small car fire? NFPA requires you to flow at least 100 gpm.

///why would you even explore the idea of using this line ///

Why does majority of the fire service stay in the same old box of thinking? Try exploring new ideas and new innovations.

/// you may need bigger water. So why not go with the LARGER preconnect and be done with it.///

Why not pull a 2.5" if you think you might need more water? It's called experience, you pull a 1.75" because at the time your judgement says that is all of the water I need to put out that fire.

/// Then you get into the world of property conservation. ///

Do you use CAF on house fires? Talk about property conservation.

///One thing is FOR SURE... and that is it is better to have a larger preconnect and not need it than get your butt in a bind ///

Why don't you use 2" hose then? It is not much harder to maneuver than a 1.75" and will flow a whole lot more water.

///Now I think this matter has been thoroughly disected.... lets go onto another topic.///

Oh boy,Let's change the subject

///Do you work or volunteer for a fire department///

I proudly volunteer my time.
What does that have to do with this subject?

///and if so what kind of preconnects do you use?///

Mainly 1.75" and 2.5"

///Now if you are with the Magnolia, Texas FD ///

That is what it says below my name.

/// I am wondering what kind of hose they have on those commercial chassis'.///

Commercial chassis'- the only commercials we have are six 3000 gal FL/E-ONE tankers and they have 600' - 1.75" / 200' - 1" / 400' - 3" / 2000' - 5"

But if you really know so much about my fire department you would have asked about our pumpers instead..


Buck