Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Engine Staffing 3 vs. 4 personnel

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by CaptainCarp:
    How can you attack a fire with three on the first out engine.

    You need a driver thats 1
    You need someone to take the hydrant thats 2
    Now who is stupid enough to go in by their self.

    that means run your butt that 800' pack up and try to make the bottle last before you get in the door. Four is better Five is Great.
    Thats what the 2nd in company's job is, to lay into the working pumper. If you're fortuanate, you might just have a plug closer and after the chauffer puts the pump in gear and start your line. He could scuttle drag the hose to the plug and hook it up. Also, we pack up while we are in-route to the fire so we don't have that kind of problem of getting there first then have to pack up wasting precious time.

    Yes more is better, but what if you just don't have the people around to do it?

    You can get a decent knockdown on the fire and a decent search going also.


    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    How can you attack a fire with three on the first out engine.

    You need a driver thats 1
    You need someone to take the hydrant thats 2
    Now who is stupid enough to go in by their self. Now someone might say that the hydrant man would be able to assist with the attack?
    That is very true but, if your engine just laid 800' to suppley the engine that means run your butt that 800' pack up and try to make the bottle last before you get in the door. Four is better Five is Great.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    The Dallas Study advocated a 5 man crew. And that was the minimum! It was about 15-20 years ago and was published in Fire Command, the NFPA Magazine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    We run 3 man engines - used to be 2 so I should feel good, right?

    Wrong.

    You need 4 minimum. Without 4 (pump operator, officer and two FF) the officer becomes a FF. With the officer humping hose and sometimes working the knob, who's watching out for the crew, who's watching the fire conditions, who asks for help via radio when needed?

    At my department a Lieutenant on an engine company is just a higher paid FF with more responsibility. And that's due to our running 3 man engines.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    we run a 3 man engine on still alarms and a 4 man engine on f/s or box alarms. we run a 3 man ambulance on still ambulance calls and 4 man ambulance on f/s or box. we get auto aid on all f/s and box fire calls. box ambulance and we get and engine and heavy rescue. chief and dep chief split up who will respond and take command on f/s and box fire alarms at night.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I run with a small volunteer station. We can seat up to 10 in our one Engine and up to 5 in the second engine. We prefer that neither leave with less than 4 but, sometimes you end up leaving with less but, on the other hand we have gotten both out with a full crew on each. Thank goodness for mutual aid on the days were running short.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    We are a small paid department with 7 per shift in one station.
    3-engine
    2-amb
    2- for second engine or back up amb.

    I would love to see more per unit. Even if we are all at the station for the initial alarm on structures it is busy five to 10 min waiting for the first mutual aide company.
    If we have already caught an amb. call or two or at min. maning of five its a butt kicker.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    A reader mentioned the two in/ two out rule. The way our small career dept (4 companies, 3 persons each) has understood OSHA to say is that
    1. Every HazMat call requires an incident commander,
    2. that a two person entrant team into a hazardous environment requires a two person standby team,
    3. that the standby team may engage in other physical activities (other than just standing there) as long as those activities would not otherwise keep them from immediately performing the rescue.

    This has meant that even if the first arriving company officer retains the incident command role along with entering the structure (or standing by the for that matter) that the pump operator can not be counted as part of the standby team. (I believe this was confirmed by NIOSH or an ANSI interpretation of the standard.)

    Our dept has since issued the instructions that a 3 person engine company may not enter a hazardous environment until the arrival of a RIT team (a second company) They also said that we could break this rule to "immediately address a known life safety concern". We have of course, stretched this exception on a number of opportunities.

    The point then becomes if a four person crew is not enough to "legally" begin the interior attack operations, and 3 is more than you need for a medical call, false alarm, public assist, dumpster fire, car fire. Isnt the 3 vs 4 arguement going to be more difficult in the future. Are there benefits to the 2 person squad systems backed up by fewer 5-6 person companies.

    As as union firefighter of 15 years I know we have 3 person crews because one operates the pump, one humps the knob and one runs the radio, backs the knob and thats the way its been for years. I KNOW that a 4 person crew or a 5 person crew would be a more powerful firefighting crew, but I also KNOW that is not going to happen. I wonder if one of the hybrids will become a staffing answer. like the squad systems or 3 career with 2-3 ridealongs or reserves. I'd be very interested in some of the your experiences with these, esp like South Bends squads.

    be safe

    Chris

    ------------------

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by Neptune 33:
    I'm not in a paid department, but we never leave with less than 4 firefighters

    See and with the 3 Person, I just can't see how it all works..
    So does that mean if only 3 people show up for the call, you'll will not respond?

    3 is better than 0

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Is anyone actually abe to fill up a ten-man cab? OUr brush units go out with one or two and the pumper three (because thats all she can carry).

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    We run four man engines and sometimes it still seems that we are under mand. There is so much that needs to be done right off that we just bust our butts and do it. The quicker the better.
    Stay safe

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    My old Dept. ran with 2 a while back (midi pumpers) and it took them 8 yrs to switch back to 4. 4 is alot better. Ladder Cos allways ran with 4.

    ------------------
    Old School...Learning New Tricks
    http://members.home.net/dly135/welcome.htm

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    You must remember 2 in 2 out,also.... Putting water on the fire with 4 firefighters is faster then 3. Plain and simple.

    ------------------
    "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog." STAY SAFE-STAY LOW

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    The biggest problem I see is that the departments that are running three (I've worked two- and even one-man rigs) are also the departments that only have three or four rigs total. They often are on scene without backup for longer too. Those three guys have to establish a water supply, force entry, make an attack, initiate salvage and overhaul. You get worked to death REAL quick. With four you can drop a man at the hydrant and still have two on the rig to go interior plus somebody to engineer. The fourth guy can come back, make connections, pull backup lines, get ventilation equipment ready to go, so that when the next due gets there they can go straight to work. As a one-man engine company I trained to put the rig in pump, pull a line, donn a pack, grab a tool, return to the nozzle, and show water in less than three minutes. If I had ever been first in on a fire I probably would've been sittin' right there at the door for quite a while waitin' for somebody to back me up.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Well, here it's a little of both. We have four engines, and one truck. Two of the four have 4 FFs. The other 2, have 3. The truck.... if we are lucky has a driver. And we are a paid department!

    I concur with anyone who has felt as if they were feeling alone when the only FF was a probie. Been there, it sucks.



    ------------------
    AAD
    Eng. Co. 9
    RFD

    "In all of us there are heroes... speak to them and they will come forth."

    "In order for us to achieve all that is demanded of us, we must regard ourselves as greater than we are."

    Leave a comment:

300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

Collapse

Upper 300x250

Collapse

Taboola

Collapse

Leader

Collapse
Working...
X