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robbing from the fire department to pay for the PD?

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  • #16
    As much as it is ethically wrong, the city doesn't make money on the FD so they see it as a cost and don't want to spend money on it. On the other hand our brothers in the PD(God bless them), earn money by writing tickets. This is not a slam against the Coppers but the truth in how a big city works. They pay the PD $50/hr in OT to write tickets and in that hour they can write hundreds of dollars.

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    • #17
      Wasn't Robert Bobb the former City Manager out there? If he was it's not surprising-he left Richmond in a similar mess...Now he's moving on to bigger and better things in Washington,DC...Like they haven't already suffered enough!

      Stay safe folks...
      Rob

      "Well done is better than well said" - B. Franklin

      Comment


      • #18
        Take a look at Pittsburgh, PA.
        731 people were laid off including 102 Police officers and 21 EMT's. About 20 of those police officers laid off were brought back. The PD overtime has been cut and all kinds of other events in the city have been cut also. The city wants the veterans pay for their parade nxt month because of the but backs. Do you think that is right. The homicide rate is way up.
        Everyone in the city has been affected by the cuts EXCEPT for the fire bureau. They are exempt from the cuts because of a no layoff cause they got in the last election for mayor. The fire bureau was to merge with the EMS back in July and that has not happened to date and probable won't happen because no one can decide how the merger will take place.
        We deal with it and we move on. Yeah there is a lot of resentment but we all still have to work with each other. We still get the job done with what we have and that's all that counts.

        Comment


        • #19
          From another thread...
          Oakland, California circa 1978 - population 350,000
          23 Fire Stations, 24 Engines, 16 hose wagons, 8 Trucks, 1 Squad
          1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat

          5 Men per Engine Co, 6 Men Per Truck, 4 Men on squad
          ~35,000 calls a year - 3500+ working fires a year


          Oakland circa 2002 - 410,000 people
          26 stations, 25 Engine Co, 7 Trucks, 1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat
          4 men and women per engine, 4 or 5 on trucks
          75,000 calls - 1100 working fires


          Working fires down by 2/3rds...firefighters down by my estimate by less than half. Sounds to me like a City Manager's formula for further cuts.

          The Fire Service has to approach things in a pro-active manner, not one of, "if cuts have to be made, cut someone else!"

          First, in most cities the four largest municipal expenses are: Education, Police, Fire, and a distant fourth Public Works. At least for the first three on those it's mostly salaries. Public Works at least gets some wiggle room they can cut back on supplies and they tend to be paid less than the professional teachers & the public safety police & fire guys. Public Utilities is usually pretty safe, because they can be revenue-neutral (user fees pay instead of taxes). Cuts in other city departments often are difficult -- cut 20 guys from Fire is barely noticeable to the public, while just 2 people might represent 50% of a department outside of the "big four".

          Now, I *believe* in Oakland the Schools are probably independent of the city. That leaves Police & Fire as the big two municipal expenditures. It's tough position to be in going before a city council with two places they can potentially cut money -- hmm, a murder rate that's equal or higher than it was in 1978...or an area that 2/3rds of their work has disappeared since 1978.

          I'm not necessarily offering any solutions, but for most cities the only three big areas to save money are schools, police, and fire. If schools are politically sacred cows, and the police both can pull in revenue and show crime is as bad as it was 20 years ago, fire ain't gonna have much luck if they're mantra is "cut someone else!" cause their ain't someone else to cut.

          I have issues with NFPA 1710, but one of the really great things the committee did from a strategic standpoint was justify the 4 minute response time as being needed to deliver effective EMS to cardiac patients. You can hammer on 1710's staffing & deployment from a firefighting perspective as being pretty arbitrary, but the time to deliver an AED is both something well and scientifically documented, consistent, and is a growing area of responsibility today. Yeah, we need 4 minutes to save a heart attack patient...and as this terrific side benefit, we get to fire calls in a timely manner too! It may wrinkle the nose of fire guys, but it's the arguement that will hold the most weight with the city manager & council.
          IACOJ Canine Officer
          20/50

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          • #20
            From another thread...
            Oakland, California circa 1978 - population 350,000
            23 Fire Stations, 24 Engines, 16 hose wagons, 8 Trucks, 1 Squad
            1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat

            5 Men per Engine Co, 6 Men Per Truck, 4 Men on squad
            ~35,000 calls a year - 3500+ working fires a year


            Oakland circa 2002 - 410,000 people
            26 stations, 25 Engine Co, 7 Trucks, 1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat
            4 men and women per engine, 4 or 5 on trucks
            75,000 calls - 1100 working fires
            These were the numbers I was looking for. There are alot of FD's in the country that wish they were having the "difficulties" Oakland is having. From a City Manager's point of view, this justifies the reductions. I have these questions before I comment further:

            What is a hose wagon?
            What is a Squad?
            They don't do EMS?
            How many Chiefs?
            How many fire prevention?
            How many arson?
            How many public education?
            How many civilian employees?
            PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

            Comment


            • #21
              The Entire Statement

              Oakland, California circa 1978 - population 350,000
              23 Fire Stations, 24 Engines, 16 hose wagons, 8 Trucks, 1 Squad
              1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat, 8 BC's with Operators, 1 Shift AC with operator - 850 Men

              5 Men per Engine Co, 6 Men Per Truck, 4 Men on squad
              ~35,000 calls a year - 3,500+ working fires a year


              Oakland circa 2002 - 410,000 people
              26 stations, 25 Engine Co, 7 Trucks, 1 Rescue, 1 Fire Boat
              4 men and women per engine, 3 Trucks with 5 people, 4 with 4 people
              3 BC's without any operators, no shift AC's
              75,000 calls - 1,100 working fires - 450 Personnel


              Circa 2003 -
              25 Stations, 23 Engine Co, 6 Trucks, 1 Rescue, NO FIREBOAT



              Hose Wagon - Driven by One Firefighter followed Pumper in a Pumper/ Wagon combo for reverse lay and relay pumping as well as additional hose.

              Squad - Same vein as FDNY Squads Truck/Engine work. Elite FF's that went on every fire they wanted to as well as all 2nd Alarms.

              We are a First Response ALS Service. No Ambulances but we have Paramedics on Engine Companies that assist the private ambulances.


              Fire Prevention has 5 inspectors and engineers, plus vegetation managment inspectors (california FF will know what I am talking about)

              We have one arson inspector per shift

              We have one person in Pub Ed

              We have an unknown number of civilian employees due to the chief hiding them under the auspices of being employees of other city branches. Most likely around 50 or more.
              Last edited by OFD226; 10-26-2003, 06:02 PM.
              -------------------------------------
              "An aggressive interior attack does not mean just going inside to put out a fire. THAT'S just doing our job...."
              IAFF Local 55

              Comment


              • #22
                No George, guess I can't count you in there since you think having support for fellow firefighters as a brotherhood unconditionally is "corrupting
                First of all, I am as much, probably more of a "brother" than you will ever be. I just refuse to vomit back the union mantra. I also refuse to accept that ****ing away taxpayer's money to maintain a status quo of a FD whose working fire load has dropped dramatically in a relatively short period of time is an acceptable way of doing business. Cutting just to cut is not acceptable. However, many older cities are running companies in the same manner they were run in the 60's.

                I'm sorry, your numbers don't seem to be out of whack with many similar sized cities in NJ. You are providing more services than most of them. Momst of them would kill for your manning.

                I questionned the same thing when FDNY was closing companies. My point then, and my point now, is; you cannot tell me that a complete analysis of the FD, any FD, couldn't find a more efficient way of deploying companies, staffing companies and providing services if they looked hard enough.
                PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                Comment


                • #23
                  I did not start this thread with the intentions of airing my own departments dirty laundry. This was an attempt to find out if anyone else out there was having the same problems as us.
                  Huh? You didn't do it to air your dirty laundry.... geez you've got a funny way of not doing something. You did that for one reason and one reason only, so people on these forums would all in unison say a big "Awwwwwww..." and start slagging off the PD. You just have a problem because we're not all drones that are going to act that way. Your thread was questioned because you gave no information. You just seemed like a whiny git who's trucks weren't shiny enough.... and how are we supposed to think otherwise without such information? Oh that's right, the "Brotherhood" means we should give you the benefit of the doubt? Practise was you preach.

                  No George, guess I can't count you in there since you think having support for fellow firefighters as a brotherhood unconditionally is "corrupting")
                  Count me out too, I don't want to be part of any "brotherhood" that treats people the way you do. I don't want to be part of any silly little clique that immediately banishes you if you use brain power and, shock horror, have an independent thought.

                  When you've gotten down off your high horse and are willing to look at an issue from all angles (other than just your own) I might pay you some respect. As far as i'm concerned, your just an elitist who deserves respect from no-one.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    edit
                    Last edited by OFD226; 10-26-2003, 06:05 PM.
                    -------------------------------------
                    "An aggressive interior attack does not mean just going inside to put out a fire. THAT'S just doing our job...."
                    IAFF Local 55

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Re: Yea, and those garbage guy get a big cut too

                      Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

                      But attacking the PD for them being fairly funded is not the answer.
                      For the reasons everyone has stated, I agree.
                      God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
                      Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
                      Click this to search FH Forums!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by OFD226
                        Are you saying that fires now, even if we have less, deserve less people at the scene to control them? We SHOULD have the same staffing levels as the 60's, if not more, because in my opinion we are less efficient at controlling our fires now due to less exposure to them. As for your anti-union stance : I am a proud UNION brother and the name UNION means a united front above all else. I don't expect everyone to share my opinon.
                        Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. We need to send fewer fire fighters to each fire

                        The quote "we are less efficient...". Do you have a mouse in your pocket? My vol. FD is not less efficient today. If yours is, your training chief is not doing his job.

                        I am a proud union brother, too. Just one who exercises independent and realizes that maybe, just maybe, there is a more efficient means of doing things.
                        PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          edit
                          Last edited by OFD226; 10-26-2003, 06:05 PM.
                          -------------------------------------
                          "An aggressive interior attack does not mean just going inside to put out a fire. THAT'S just doing our job...."
                          IAFF Local 55

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by OFD226
                            OH MY GOD!!! What are you thinking!!! We don't send ENGOUGH firefighters to ANY fires!!! How the HELL can you justify sending FEWER!! In order to accomplish the tasks that MUST be safely performed on any fireground there is a minumum number of firefighters, and in this new age of plastics, light weight construction and an overall more dangerous fireground the number required has gone UP from the 1960's. There are more firefighters being injured per fire now a days than there has ever been in the past, and THIS is due to a lack of personnel to properly accomplish the tasks the HAVE to be accomplished. What do YOU not want done well and quickly? A thorough Primary Search? Ventilation? Hose Line Placement? Have you EVER read anything Tom Brennon has ever written? My god man! Where are your priorites!!
                            Oh my God
                            PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              OFD brother...you need to relax,

                              I have read more of George's posts than I have daily newspapers. I don't always agree, but I do know when he is being sarcastic. (note the rolleyes smiley at the end of the sentence.

                              We, (no mouse George) The Fire Service as a whole do a terrible job of selling ourselves. period, end of story. We all know that our "downtime" is filled with both meaningful activities - training, truck checks, inspections - and meaningless - TV watching, reading newspapers, etc. The public doesn't care, either way, what we do. All they see is that there are thoose firefighters sitting around, doing nothing, and my taxes are paying for it. Are they right, no way. But we do a ****ty job of explaning our duties, and the importance of paying for protection (like paying for insurance). Now the police seem to do a better job, yet we know that some cops get a much sleep on a midnight shift as we do, they just have the ford emblem imprinted on their forehead afterwords (George,I am making a funny, do not get upset.)

                              Until the Fire Service wakes up, and sells 2 in/ 2 out, NFPA 1710 and every other thing to the public, as important and necessary...we will continue to enjoy the view from the toilet bowl.

                              Dave

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by OFD226
                                OH MY GOD!!! What are you thinking!!! We don't send ENGOUGH firefighters to ANY fires!!! How the HELL can you justify sending FEWER!! In order to accomplish the tasks that MUST be safely performed on any fireground there is a minumum number of firefighters, and in this new age of plastics, light weight construction and an overall more dangerous fireground the number required has gone UP from the 1960's. There are more firefighters being injured per fire now a days than there has ever been in the past, and THIS is due to a lack of personnel to properly accomplish the tasks the HAVE to be accomplished. What do YOU not want done well and quickly? A thorough Primary Search? Ventilation? Hose Line Placement? Have you EVER read anything Tom Brennon has ever written? My god man! Where are your priorites!!
                                Read hfd66truck's post.

                                Now why don't you funnel your passion on the topics above towards what he suggested? George once said something to the effect of, "we'd rather whine about it than do something about it" in a message to me. And in almost all cases, I think that's 100% correct.
                                God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
                                Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
                                Click this to search FH Forums!

                                Comment

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