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  • #31
    Talk/check with your local water department & health department before running an unattended pump off a hydrant.

    They tend not to like suction pulled on public water supplies, due to concerns of back-contamination (what if a check valve fails, what if the ground around a pipe had sewage, etc). On of the reasons for the "standard" of 20psi residual is to give a pump operator reaction time in case a bunch of people flush toilets at once or someone hits another hydrant.

    If you can, in advance, know their concerns and demonstrate how your unattended pumper won't get into "danger" situations for them, it's probably a lot better than trying to afterwards where the answer, simply, is going to be your community is boiling water for 2 weeks 'cause State Public Health just doesn't know what your pump did or didn't do.

    There's also some fireground issues that may or not be a major concern. In addition to incoming pressure monitors (to keep from going below 20psi residual), you'd need someway to pre-set or control the discharge pressure -- can it handle both full flow when you're using master streams, and then throttle down when you're only using a few big handlines, and then throttle back up when the master streams are opened up again. Or does it just give you full volume all the time, only goverened by the residual pressure, and you have to blow off the unused water on scene?

    These might, probably are not, insurmountable challenges. But then again, the $25,000 is probably gonna buy you most of a early 1980s vintage 1500gpm pumper. Not sure if it's that big of a labor/time savings to use a trailer mounted pump which someone still has to tow and hook-up over just having that person drive a pumper there and pump with it.
    Dalmatian90
    Forum Member
    Last edited by Dalmatian90; 10-27-2003, 11:45 AM.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

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    • #32
      While it is an interesting idea, I think a stand-alone pump would be a bit impractical. Dal, I'm not sure neiowa intended an automated rig (unless thats what SPO stands for), I'll assume he wants an operator at the pump.

      In a rural FD with a single station it might make sense to tow a stand-alone behind the 1st due pumper, you drop it and an operator off at the water supply then lay to the scene. The biggest problem is that this would require that you know you'll need water before you get on scene (I find its pretty rare that the 1st due lays into a fire unless its already blowing out the roof). You'd have to stop, unhitch, secure the LDH and proceed to the scene while the operator has to set up and get water flowing. If your pumper rolls with 6 guys everytime and you can spare 2 to set up the stand-alone it might work pretty slick, but if you are short on manpower it would be a different ball game.

      If you run from more than one station however, it does not make as much sense. Who ever shows up on scene first is attack, 2nd is water supply. Also, if you are not laying into the scene because its a "routine" call and find a well developed room and contents going there is no way a stand alone could deploy itself (even if towed by a pickup it would be bad form to drag a 1/4 mile of hose down the street, not to mention hard on the couplings). A second pumper gives you 2 choices, to nurse the 1st pumper with tank water while waiting for calvary, or reverse lay back to a water supply.

      You know, neiowa might be onto something however. Imagine if you took a quint and put the ladder on a second truck w/o spending a ton of money on a pump and tank! After all, you never use both the pump and the ladder at the same time, so why carry both? You could make the first truck (we'll call it a water mover thingy) smaller lighter and more maneuverable, and the second one (we'll call it a stick carrier thingy) could become a huge tool box on wheels with all that compartment space you'd gain
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      • #33
        Since we only have one engine, we use a stand alone pump to supply or relay water to the engine when required. We have a 25hp unit that moves 700gpm at 30psi, down to 150 gpm at 100psi, or anywhere in between.

        It is most commonly used in the traditional role of pumping from a creek or pond, but when elevation or long lays are encountered, we can boost the supply with the unit quite well. Most of our hydrants give us 100-130 psi, so add 50 or 60 psi from the portable, and we can move the water a few hundered feet farther or a few stories higher. We even practice using it as a second engine off of a second hydrant to cover exposures. It supplies two 2.5" lines to 70psi with ease. You must attend it all the time, but we would have to do that with a second pumper anyway, so no big deal.

        It is no replacement for a second pumper, but until one arrives in the near future it's all we've got.
        Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

        IACOJ

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        • #34
          More good points.

          This has been a good discussion throughout. 304 raises some good points, but laying a line going in without evidence of a working fire may be rare in his area, but not mine. Our SOPs call for the first engine to lay in. Period. The only (unusual) change would be for the second engine to reverse lay to a Hydrant IN FRONT OF the first engine. On a historical note, Stand Alone Pumps (on trailers) were a big thing in some areas during the second world war (No, I wasn't there) and the federal Civil Defense folks had thousands of them built and shipped all over the country to neighborhood civil defense groups. When the war was over, many of these organizations, and the trailer pumps, became the foundations of new Volunteer Fire Companies, mostly in fast growing suburban neighborhoods, a few in rural ares that were far from existing departments. Today, one area that I know of, has their Brush trucks fitted with 500 or even 750 GPM pumps, and they become the source pumper at a lake or stream, in particular, those areas that must be accessed by 4X4s. Stay Safe....
          Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
          In memory of
          Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
          Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

          IACOJ Budget Analyst

          I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

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          • #35
            Sorry SPO is SOP without proofreading.

            I'm talking about a large manned pump. Say 150hp/1500+ gpm. 5" storz soft suction, 5" storz out. Mounted on a trailer or perhaps a dual purpose chassis.

            To expand thought. Our rural town has 1 engine (in fact just aquired a $25000 1985 C9000 pumper/tanker + $35000 to fully equip to ISO std, best outfit our town has ever had (or other rural town in the area)). Until last week when I completed a water storage "tank farm" in our town (center of district) we had to go 8mi to nearest town/hydrant for tanker fill (+up to 7mi to far end of fire district). Next project is additional water supply in rural area. This will be a combination of storage cistern/tanks and possibly some hyrants on the planned BS rural water system. Very very limited budget as also putting together our first brush truck which is a "high" use item.

            Goal is preserve life/property and improve ISO rating (now 9). Assume std is move 1000gpm/2hr. To accomplish this need lots of tankers (local std is small 1500gal units we have largest in 30mi radius @ 2600gal) or lay hose. If you use tankers the manpower reqired comes out of the very limited headcount available to a rural vol. dept for calculating ISO. If you use tankers need many more that must be manned, maintained and insured.

            So to subject of the thread; lay hose and relay. I just aquired thru military surplus 9000ft of LDH for this project. There is no likelyhood of acquring an additional pumper in the near future. PERHAPS we keep our old POS 1970 pumper for hoselay/water supply, but we replaced it for good reason. I can very likely acquire a suitable diesel water pump from military. If not, have 2 suitable electric motor driven pumps/200kw genset that could be used.

            So anyone using a big pump (vs engine) to supply water to long lay LDH? Supply from a hydrant, cistern/tank or pond? I'm concepting "doable" planning options (sources, forwar vs reverse lay, preplans etc.). Assume planning distance of up to 2 mi, goal up to 1500gpm @ 100psi. Terrain is gently rolling. Chief is uncomfortable with concept of hose recovery but it is a once every other year exercise; I'll get convicts from the jail if needed. Going to let Joe's house burn down because we don't want to recover hose? Apparently "out west" some fire depts are laying for miles.

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            • #36
              neiowa,

              It sounds like your idea might work, but I'm wondering if it will actually help?

              If you are responding over a long distance to a farmhouse or barn, the response time must be 15-20 minutes from callout. Add kindle and equipment set up time, and your building will likely be too far gone before you get that extra water to it. I would suspect, that if you cannot roll up quickly and get knockdown with your 500-1000 gallons on your rig, you won't get that long lay in place quickly enough to do any good anyway. Now large industrial complexes like sawmills, mines, or superfarms might be a different reason to do this.

              If you only have homes and < 4000 sq/ft barns to protect, rolling a tanker with your engine would immediately give you an extra 3000 gallons to perform that initial knockdown, and then you could shuttle or long-lay the mop up water.

              I am sure you have considered things I'm missing, but I just can't see the average 1500 sq/ft farmhouse holding out long enough to set up that 2+ mile lay off of your only engine. Maybe if you used a HD pickup with a bulk LDH roll/bin to haul the pump, then perform the lay separate from the engines response, but your water would most likely still be 10-15 minutes behind your engine. It is not likely to affect your rescue ops, and why make such a big effort only to save a shell that you cannot rebuild or salvage any personal belongings from anyway.

              Get in quick and hit hard, make the primary search & rescue with truck/tanker water, and if you haven't knocked it down by then, let it go and protect any exposures. Cheaper and simpler by far.

              My personal feeling is that rural residents should be encouraged to maintain standing water ponds with 3000+ gallons (and covered if possible to prevent breeding bugs). They should be within 500' of the main structures, and with good vehicle access, and/or even buy their own mini pumps to use while they wait for you. They can build all of this with standard farm tractors and 2 days work, and their results would be better than waiting 15-30 minutes for you to roll up with an engine and a measly 500 gallons.
              Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

              IACOJ

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              • #37
                Random Thoughts:

                Hadn't even thought of the trailer being manned! Being manned I think is a better/easier way.

                Still, rather than a trailer if it's even on a flatbed truck it's probably easier than having to rely on a seperate tow vehicle. Already need an operator, so he can drive. Flatbed might raise some issues from draft (little bit higher center-of-pump) but no issues from a hydrant.

                If your going for max ISO points, need annual hose tests so that's at least once a year to lay everything. That said, look at where you are, if those extra few points don't get you up a class deferring and doing a test every-other-year might make more sense.

                Long hose lays probably not needed to save Joe's house. Commercial &
                Agricultural buildings, yep. They need more water, plus even partially involved they have more time you can try a holding action till the lay is established.

                Got three things you can do with those bigger buildings:
                1. Blitz it with all you have, knowing you'll run out of water and figuring the fire will be knocked down.
                2. Hold it with a low-flow until you establish a bigger flow. We do that with old style chicken coops where we can hold a fire at the feed room half-way down with 1.5" lines until enough water is available to run the ladder pipe.
                3. Just look like your doing something with small lines until the fire burns down to your level. Usually the first two options are greatly preferred.

                With a very long lay, like 2 miles, from a single truck you're probably around 20 minutes with a good crew to get water to the fireground. 20 minutes, 2600 gallon tanker is 130gpm -- either you're gonna knock down the house on that, or if 130gpm won't stop it, it's a cellar hole when the laid line starts pumping. Some of the new McMansions you might still have time, but I don't think that's neiowa's area.

                If you take the ISO isolated dwelling default of 500gpm for 2 hours, that's enough water to fill up either the living area or the basement of a 1000s.f. ranch house. Water flow numbers are important for insurance rating, and certainly in California now facing a wildfire you want every last drop of that 500gpm...but for an average dwelling fire that flow just is an awful lot from a practical point of view.

                If you look at the NFPA formula for a 1000 s.f. ranch without exposures, it gives you a total water need of 1700 gallons.

                And if you combine the two, I think most of us here would say being able to deliver upto 500gpm and using 1700 gallons total on a 1,000 s.f. ranch house is quite reasonable and you can do a good job.

                At any rate neiowa's goal of 1000gpm 2 miles out is a good one, it will improve ratings, and when they have big buildings it'll be a big help. Is it necessary to save Joe's house? Nah. Is it necessary to save Joe some insurance premiums? Yep.
                IACOJ Canine Officer
                20/50

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by neiowa
                  Until last week... we had to go 8mi to nearest town/hydrant for tanker fill
                  Do you have any ponds or streams in your district? In rural Maine we make extensive use of "dry hydrants." Some home owners will even dig a pond on their property to help with their insurance. Tanks are nice, as long as they are full, a pond you can eyeball to see its status. A flowing stream can be pretty shallow and still provide decent water.

                  I've seen LDH lays over a mile long at large fires, but thats rare, as mcaldwell states, not many structures will last long enough to let you set up such a water supply (of course when it comes of satisfying ISO that's a whole new game).

                  While I've never seen a dept up here use a stand-alone, there are a lot of dedicated water supply pumpers. Usually set up on older chassies with good pumps, these class A pumpers carry extra suction, a variety of strainers, lots of LDH, dump tanks and sometimes special tank filling equipment such as an overhead fill chute to top load a tanker. They are the 2nd or 3rd due truck and go straight to the water supply if its a tanker operation, to the scene and reverse lay past to the next water hole if its available.

                  H, we don't lay in because we know Engine #2 is 60 seconds behind us, we can knockdown with tank water while they set up a supply (my current FD has an excellent hydrant system). There is also a little pickuphoseaphobia, we're a volly department, if every call meant spending 15-20 minutes repacking LDH we'd end up with very low turnout and very little gain for it. Grandmaster101 do you drop hose often? Your FD is a bit more rural than mine is.
                  ________________________________________________
                  If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
                  ________________________________________________
                  A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

                  IACOJ Fire Boat 1

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                  • #39
                    Drop hose?

                    Drop hose?Surely you jest!My first due can have fire showing and pass the hydrant.Really a non issue,we've operated that way for years.By next year there won't be a Engine in the fleet with less than a 1000 gal. on it.Average box draws about 6000 gal on wheels,the Reel truck,"stick",and the heavy rescue.Second due either lays or takes the hydrant for the Reel.You think you got hoseaphobia?This place gives whole new meaning to the job.Until we fired the last Chief we didn't even have any 2.5 hose.2" will do the job.Yeah right;NOT!That reel makes picking up LDH almost enjoyable.I've got 3500 gal "watering cans"in every town around me so we don't put down the "pipe"nearly as often as we used to.Makes a difference what is burning and where as to which water supply tactic is used.T.C.

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                    • #40
                      Goal is preserve life/property and improve ISO rating (now 9). Assume std is move 1000gpm/2hr
                      I believe, for ISO purposes, that the 1000gpm/2hr must also be established in a certain amount of time. I think you have to start with no hose laid and then get that amount moving in just a couple minutes. Not sure though.
                      "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                      • #41
                        I appreciate the input. Yes ISO water volume likely is more than most fires will require but ISO standards are not pulled out of air/100yr of history behind development. Yes in rural area early detection is a big problem. And response time. And manpower, And water supply. And limited budget. And structure fires are actually rare. Just like every rural vol dept. But don't plan with mediocracy as the goal. Affect what you can. Turn over rocks and think ourside of the box.

                        Yes, for ISO you have to establish and maintain flow (10min as I recall) until your "big water" supply is up.

                        Our first due (and only engine) is our "new" 1500gal pumper tanker. Accompanied by 2600 gal tanker. At present then have to depend in mutual aid 1500gal tiny tankers for shuttle. Working on jumbo tanker capacity for additional water for first due. Should be completed this winter.

                        Big structures are barns (wood up to 6000ft2), machine sheds (wood post/steel covered up to 8-10000ft) some with a couple $mil in farm equipment inside, and hog confienments (wood post/steel covered up to 60x300ft and can REALLY burn).

                        No ponds in our area as 1. streams/creeks are sand bottom (ponds leak unless dug or lined) 2. flat terrain so few locations for dammed pond anyhow 3. ponds are for critters and in 2003 critters are in huge confinement buildings (water from wells).

                        Thus: Need storage dug ponds (expensive), hydrants (planned rural water/USDA bozos are NOT getting with the program (different issue)) or we arrange for/put in tanks/cisterns. So we we are doing tanks/cisterns for first effort. Unless we continue to ISO (prove can more ISO water) we have to put together a hose lay plan. We do not have manpower to run 60000gal/hr relay. Which is what I'm working, initially for in town and then in rural district.

                        Obviously LDH reel on a truck with big midship pump is first choice. I can get suitable truck to carry/lay hose. Or trailer and centrifugal pumps (all military surplus). If I can procure $ can add a LDH reel (new $10000 is my est.). Add midship pump, doubt can raise $ unless we get thru Fire Grant. Non of which will happen for hose/relay project happens I get a grass/brush rig figured out for the chief.

                        www.stanleyiowa.com

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                        • #42
                          Looks like you have a good basis to work from, hearty looking trucks!

                          I used to belong to a small town FD with simular issues (except our ponds didn't leak )

                          You have to ask yourself, do you really want to satisfy ISO or improve your firefighting abilities? Unless the taxpayers are screaming about their insurance rates there is not much reason to boost ISO rates. Even if you can boost 1 or 2 points, how much will it save your clients (tax payers)? If they are screaming you need to make them aware that the savings come at a cost, and they have to be willing to pay higher taxes.

                          If its more important to make saves I'd take any money you have and get a 2nd tanker in the 2000-2500gal range. That would put 5000-6000gals on scene in the 1st response. If you can't put the fire out with 5000 gallons then waiting for mutual aid to help will not cost you anything. Hang a pair of big drop tanks on your tankers, first one in sets up the tank for the pumper to draft from, dumps and heads to the nearest refill site. Second tanker backs in and dumps his load as soon as there is room in the tank and runs off to refill. In the meanwhile, your pickup truck with the pump trailer runs to the nearest water hole and waits for the tankers. Ideally another pair of tankers and a pumper from mutual aid will be heading your way. The tankers go to the scene, the pumper sets up a 2nd water source ideally in the opposite direction from the 1st so the tanks don't have to turn around at the scene, just drive by dumping.

                          There are lots of ways to speed up your tanker shuttle such as side dumps, big inlets on the tanks, and a good mutual aid agreement. Hose is great, I love 5" but a solid tanker system has a longer reach and I feel is more important.

                          Its also my understanding that, at least in my area, ISO is becoming a non-issue. Its my understanding that insurance companies just don't look at ISO anymore, they have their own formulas.
                          ________________________________________________
                          If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
                          ________________________________________________
                          A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

                          IACOJ Fire Boat 1

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                          • #43
                            We run one of the biggest reels in the nation. 5000' 5". Single reel. http://www.mortlake.org/Mortlake/App...Engine_190.htm

                            Neat truck, I don't think I'd support a reel again though.

                            It is nice to lay easier around corners (power off from the reel), but as long as your hosebed isn't packed tight hose should pay off ok as long as you take the corners slow (v. fast and dragging the hose sideways).

                            I'd save the money of the reel, put in a bigger hose bed & buy more hose and have the option for either a shorter, high flow dual lay or a single long lay.

                            It's still a lot of work repacking a reel at the size we run. It's gotta be packed tight to keep air out, and the best procedure we have (and we've tried a bunch of varying effectiveness & safety) is have 6-10 guys pickup a 200' length and "walk" it in -- most people just let the hose pass through their glove hands so it doesn't drag on the ground, the guy with the coupling holds tension on it to let the air & residual water out. If you just drag the hose back with the reel, which can be done, you pickup a lot more road sand and grit, wear the hose quicker, and file down the coupling.

                            If you really want to make the troops happy...we had a major mutual aid drill at our fairgrounds so even in the heavy rain we had to lay...hose was so muddy from the race track it all got pickup trucked back to the station to be rinsed and then reeled.

                            Maybe if your using smaller reels, like 2500' or 3000', it might not be as big of an issue. But for long lays, go hose bed.

                            Now, the truck does have other features I love like the Squirrel Tail suction and the hydraulic-driven primer (which now gives us sub-10 second primes from 10' lifts through 30' of suction...)
                            IACOJ Canine Officer
                            20/50

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                            • #44
                              bump thread

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