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EAST COAST vs WEST COAST!

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  • #46
    Ladders, Anyone?.....

    Dumb Old East Coast traditional FDNY. They use aluminum Ladders, when they could follow the lead of their progressive West Coast Counterparts, and have ladders made of Wood. Right, Larry? Stay Safe....
    Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
    In memory of
    Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
    Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

    IACOJ Budget Analyst

    I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

    www.gdvfd18.com

    Comment


    • #47
      Awesome posting...

      Originally posted by imtxff44
      Some generalizations, East versus west:

      East coast makes up words thinking somehow it is macho, ie towah, fyyyyah, etc, then go home and say tower and fire. It magically comes on at work. Somehow they think that will impress the public speaking like you didn't finish 2nd grade and have chief bugles.

      West coast has better codes thus kills a lot less civilians and firefighters. The ratios of difference are as high as 8 and 12 to 1 deaths between some west and eastern states. You get what you invest in. Ie required sprinklers, detectors, adopting of model codes, hydrant spacing and flows, prevention and enforcement of same, etc. It is not just due to old buildings, look around almost any eastern city no hydrants in rural areas with thousands of people, no codes whatsoever, anything goes. Out west the state requires whatever the city or county won't in many cases.

      East or West Coast things like ISO are really an issue of doing what is best for the public, having a Class 5 or worse, simply indicates you are offering poor fire protection seeing as how the measure is water 40%, fire apparatus 22% and trained people 24% of the grade. Everything else is an excuse. You will pay less for a go grading for insurance and your fire losses are in fact less! West has the best city and rural water supply scores and does it with less firefighters, greater spacing, and more innovation apparently.

      Almost everyone on the east coast wants to be FDNY from look of thier apparatus, helmets, etc..when they don't have the staffing to pull it off, the FDNY worship is sickening from smoothbores to 2 1/2 inch hose.

      West coast fire stations and departments are based upon need and rarely have a bar in them, east coast often starts as a bar and a club that happens to have fire trucks, not on need but often like a softball team to beat the other guy. Bar company is a east coast thing. 125,000 ff in PA versus 50,000 in CA, look at the difference in area, population, numberof fire trucks, etc

      East coast thing is fire truck parades, absolutely unheard of on the west.

      Tradition the badge of honor of the east coast, knife and fork members, 70 and 80 year old hanger ons, not a west coast thing. Most west fd's don't have a president, bingo, meeting hall, etc. West is there to offer service, period. East often hides the event to bring honor to the dead versus and open debate and report on the west to keep whatever from happening again.

      West cost says the unit they are calling then identify themselves and east coast say who they are and then who they are calling.

      East coast rarely follows there own personal safety rules or enforces them at all levels, (see any magazine photo for prrof) versus the west safety first and writeups galore if you don't want to follow the rules. You know, things like cheaters on the breathing apparatus, taking the liners out of the coats, free lancing on the fire ground, no accountability on the fire ground, pull up boots forever, wearing the scba but never buckling the waist belt, standing in the rescues, jump seats, etc. Look at LA with 18 years between firifighter deaths for any cause, then it was a helicopter falling out of the sky. Or Clark County with 1.5 million people, 28 years between firefighter deaths.

      West coasters are more likely to work together over a large region, like 2 to 4 weeks a few hundred miles away, really have ICS figured out to do so.

      Those are a selection of the obvious ones.

      Ok,

      #1- I think I know who Larry is. (We might have clashed in the past)

      #2- Why is it when someone, anyone, writes a posting thats
      powerful in it's wording and sites examples, people then have
      to resort to name calling and slamming? Did he write something
      that got to you or under your skin. He sited FF death stats
      and other accuarate information.

      #3. Yes, I think the posting was pretty good! I have seen some
      of what he had spoken off. Had some good examples and
      descriptive. The SCBA cheater bars are true. You never see
      anyone buckling the waist belts on their SCBAs, etc. Sorry
      his writing ****ed off some of you.

      Like someone said, apples and oranges. There is no cure or
      fix all. Not worth fighting over. Again, Yes, respect TRADITION
      but dont let it dicate your fireground objectives.
      Last edited by CALFFBOU; 10-16-2003, 01:39 AM.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by FFMcDonald
        Why can't people compare apples to apples - and oranges to oranges?
        I was kinda wondering, being from the West Coast, albeit of the Northern persuasion:

        Which side are the apple guys on again?

        Inquiring minds are asking.

        Mostly I thought we were firefighters out there to do a job, using the best tools and techniques available to us to get the job done safely and effectively. Just from banging around in my own neighbourhood I have seen some of what I think of as inovative thinking in an approach to a problem. Maybe I would have thought of "that" or maybe I would not have.

        My point is essentially this: city to city and state to state or east to west each FD will do it's job based on the type of gear and equipment available, and because of those gear differences techniques will be slightly varied. As has been pointed out the Eastern guys do things "their way" because it's always been done that way, and it's always worked for us. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

        So the Western guys look at that and say "hey I can see a better/easier way to do that same task." So that's great, awesome idea, but are you going to use the exact same gear etc, or are you going to use the equipment that you know?

        I am not trying to open an debate on on gear and equipment here and mostly I am trying not to take a side in this either. At 0330hrs I am not sure I am succeeding by I am trying for a neutral position here. It just seems to me that there is not "better or worse" way to get the job done either on the East Coast or the West Coast, only "different". Sometimes different is a good thing, espeically if soemone can learn from that and be able to apply it in some modified fashion to do that job at home.

        Some of the "new stuff" we saw a few weeks ago in the Cumberland Auto EX competition could not be directly applied to our area of operations, but with some small adjustments in the use of the techniques we can. It certainly gave new perspective to approaching a solution to the problem (whatever it might be.)

        Different is to learn something new, or perhaps even to pass on something new to someone else. Just another "tool in the box".
        If you don't do it RIGHT today, when will you have time to do it over? (Hall of Fame basketball player/coach John Wooden)

        "I may be slow, but my work is poor." Chief Dave Balding, MVFD

        "Its not Rocket Science. Just use a LITTLE imagination." (Me)

        Get it up. Get it on. Get it done!

        impossible solved cotidie. miracles postulo viginti - quattuor hora animadverto

        IACOJ member: Cheers, Play safe y'all.

        Comment


        • #49
          Like someone said, apples and oranges. There is no cure or
          fix all. Not worth fighting over. Again, Yes, respect TRADITION
          but dont let it dicate your fireground objectives.
          I think what you don't realize is the TRADITION that Larry has on this board. He has been banned more times than I can count. He has alienated even more people than I have. That is what I think most people who know him and his thinly veiled attempt at anonymity are annoyed at.
          PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

          Comment


          • #50
            Posted by Calffbou

            Ok,

            #1- I think I know who Larry is. (We might have clashed in the past)
            No doubt! The question is..which incarnation? He has had more personalities than Sybil!

            #2- Why is it when someone, anyone, writes a posting thats
            powerful in it's wording and sites examples, people then have
            to resort to name calling and slamming? Did he write something
            that got to you or under your skin. He sited FF death stats
            and other accuarate information.
            imtxff44 just happened to slam the entire East Coast in his post, based on picking one or two examples. If he really is a "Texas" firefighter, he should take a look into his own backyard and try to solve those dilemmas before trying to take on half of the country!

            #3. Yes, I think the posting was pretty good! I have seen some of what he had spoken off. Had some good examples and
            descriptive. The SCBA cheater bars are true. You never see
            anyone buckling the waist belts on their SCBAs, etc. Sorry
            his writing ****ed off some of you.
            Newsflash! It happens on the Left Coast as well as the East Coast, in every fire department across the country every day. In the adrenaline rush of the first minutes of battle, we tend to overlook a fdew things. He chose pictures as an example. Yes, I have gotten off the rig without my waist strap on..but it is almost impossible to put it on from the seat. I buckle it when I get off the rig. if someone snaps a picture of me at that moment in time I get off the rig, am I unsafe?

            What ****es people off his is "holier than thou, God's gift to firefighting. I know more than anyone else about the job" attitude.


            Like someone said, apples and oranges. There is no cure or
            fix all. Not worth fighting over. Again, Yes, respect TRADITION
            but dont let it dicate your fireground objectives.
            Apples and oranges are both fruit, grow on trees and are quite tasty.

            Every region has its own "flavor" and "variety" it's own problems and it's own oddities, and it's own adaptations. The job is the same...put the wet stuff and other assorted fire suppression materials on the red stuff!


            _
            Last edited by DeputyChiefGonzo; 10-16-2003, 09:51 AM.
            ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
            Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

            Comment


            • #51
              Atta boy George

              And you know George, that's no small feat Hehe.Does often stimulate debate though doesn't it?T.C.

              Comment


              • #52
                Brett,

                Yes, you know who Larry is, we all do. As George stated, his history speaks for itself. The scary thing is, if he were able to overcome his insecurity which forces him to attack and insult everyone, he may actually be helpful.

                You say that his post was pretty good. Let's take a look ...
                East coast makes up words thinking somehow it is macho, ie towah, fyyyyah, etc, then go home and say tower and fire. It magically comes on at work. Somehow they think that will impress the public speaking like you didn't finish 2nd grade and have chief bugles.
                Almost everyone on the east coast wants to be FDNY from look of thier apparatus, helmets, etc..when they don't have the staffing to pull it off, the FDNY worship is sickening from smoothbores to 2 1/2 inch hose.
                East coast rarely follows there own personal safety rules or enforces them at all levels
                How could anyone NOT take these as insults?
                125,000 ff in PA versus 50,000 in CA, look at the difference in area, population, numberof fire trucks, etc
                Let's look at numbers of ACTIVE FF's ... for example, my company. 82 members on the roster. About 25 are active on any kind of regular basis, 10 are juniors. Out of 82 that would be counted in a statistic, there are actually about 25.
                East often hides the event to bring honor to the dead versus and open debate and report on the west to keep whatever from happening again.
                Yes, NIOSH, OSHA, and NFPA often simply overlook LODD's on the East Coast. Only about half of them are ever reported. We hide the rest.
                West cost says the unit they are calling then identify themselves and east coast say who they are and then who they are calling.
                I have no idea where he got that one from.
                wearing the scba but never buckling the waist belt, standing in the rescues
                Again ... huh? I do believe that a certain San Francisco rescue was featured on The Bravest where the members stood on the back of an open air rescue.
                The ratios of difference are as high as 8 and 12 to 1 deaths between some west and eastern states.
                U.S. Civilian Fire Deaths per Million People 1995 – 1999 Annual Averages, by State
                West Coast Examples
                California 7.1
                Nevada 9.1
                Oregon 10.3
                Washington 9.5

                East Coast Examples
                New York 12.1
                Maine 12.2
                Pennsylvania 16.5
                Rhode Island 6.7
                Connecticut 9.5
                New Jersey 9.3
                Delaware 10.9
                Maryland 11.2

                If anyone has a calculator that, when 7.1 is multiplied by anything between 8 and 12, you get 12.1, please let me know.

                California population density - 221.22 people per square mile.
                New York population density - 402.66 people per square mile.

                It would make sense that civilian fire death rates per 1 million people would be a little higher in a state where the population density is almost double that of another state.

                Again ... he could possibly be helpful ... if his posts were riddled with insults and blatent lies.

                Stay Safe
                Last edited by PAVolunteer; 10-16-2003, 10:37 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Yeah if people think that I am upset, and [email protected]#$% YES I am.
                  First of all, you don't attack my brothers and expect me not to respond. And secondly correct your cranial-anal invertment and look in your own backyard. Point that narrow view at yourself and those around you and start with the problems their and not worry about those you know nothing about.
                  AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo

                  IAFF Local 3900

                  IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm

                  ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats

                  F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Thanks for the link to the fire stats page.

                    WOW, Montana (my home) is at 12.3 deaths per million people!!!

                    That is very intersting considering that we have less then a million people in the entire state (around 900,000) and less then 1 person per square mile population density (something like .75 people per square mile).

                    We do kill 10-20 fire fighters at a time some years in wildfire blowups, but that would not be reflected here since it is civilian deaths. Still that is a lot of fire related deaths when you consider the small number of people in the state.

                    The southern states seem to have the higher number of deaths from fire per million. Could that be reflectin the older construction of some of the populated areas?
                    -Brotherhood: I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
                    -Mistakes: It could be that the purpose of you life is to serve as a warning to others.

                    -Adversity: That which does not kill me postpones the inevitable.

                    -Despair: Its always darkest before it goes Pitch Black.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      To clear up a few things..

                      San Francisco wears full turnouts AND hoods to ALL calls, not just box alarms (ie. street boxes, AFA, etc. Defintately more in common with FDNY than LAFD, but that goes for almost all of the Bay Area departments.

                      I don't know of any department that wear s 3/4 boots out here, but a few still wear wool paints with a coat:

                      Hayward Fire Department, Sacramento City Fire Department

                      Oakland Fire Department only started wearing full gear last year, and we do not issue hoods.

                      There are a few departments on the west coast that have been around as long or longer as their east coast counterparts:

                      Oakland Fire Department - full paid professonal department - 1869
                      Sacramento City Fire Department - 1871

                      Most of our buildings are balloon frame wooden construction, due to the fact that we have EARTHQUAKES and brick falls down, so tell me what burns more easily, brick or wood?

                      If you have never climbed, thrown or used a wooden ladder then why are you bashing them? They are great, very secure and last forever. And they look pretty cool too.........

                      SCBA policy in both SFFD and OFD are lax at best, most trucks do not wear bottles to the roof, and SFFD has a policy of no SCBA on pitched roofs at all.

                      The most obvious difference to me is the style of truck work. East coast trucks focus much more on search, where West Coast focus more of Vertical Ventilation in order to make the search easier/protect victims...
                      -------------------------------------
                      "An aggressive interior attack does not mean just going inside to put out a fire. THAT'S just doing our job...."
                      IAFF Local 55

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Sac City fire was established on 2/5/1850.

                        Maybe Oakland got paychecks first, but Sac City is the oldest Fire Department west of the Mississippi.

                        Like OFD says, many west coast FDs are older than their east coast counterparts.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I stand corrected and yes their are still a few with 3/4 boots. That is really not the issue. Its about someone starting to attack the way EC FF operate. All that matters is that we put the fire out and everyone goes home.
                          AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo

                          IAFF Local 3900

                          IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm

                          ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats

                          F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Ok, call me crazy but these pics are from '98 Noe Valley Fire. And it doesn't look like anyone is wearing bunker pants.
                            http://www.quovadimus.org/noefire98/thumb.html
                            AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo

                            IAFF Local 3900

                            IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm

                            ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats

                            F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Go to 5th pic from the bottom. No bunkers their.



                              http://www.firenuggets.com/firepics.htm
                              AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo

                              IAFF Local 3900

                              IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm

                              ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats

                              F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                http://www.ohioinsurancefactbook.org..._d_chart.shtml

                                1999 National Average Homeowner's Insurance (annually): $487

                                Most Expensive State: Texas, at $831.

                                Least Expensive State: Wisconsin, at $266

                                Now, fire is not the only component of homeowner's insurance -- Wisconsin isn't known as a hotbed for tornadoes or icestorms or hurricanes or earthquakes. Building construction costs also factor in.

                                Californians pay an average of $578. Connecticut pays $546.

                                Hmmm, let's see Pennsvylania that doesn't get exposed to the severe coastal weather and has a lack of building codes in many areas comes in at $403. Nevada with it's great building codes, pay $474.
                                IACOJ Canine Officer
                                20/50

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