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  • captstanm1
    replied
    I think you only have if half correct. You may NOT wear mixed brands of gear. As for wearing mixed types of fabric ie Black Pbi coat and a Black Advance pants I have never heard anything wrong with that as long as the fabric meets standards it is ok.
    I do not have the current standard in front of me but I am sure someone has access to it. I know that the testing requires a "completed garment". One piece of the garment does not constitute a compliant ensemble. In order to be compliant both pieces have to be tested together and the TPP and THL evaluated. There are so many many different combinations that no manufacturer will go the expense of testing Nomex Pants with Advance Coats, Advance Coats with Basofil Pants, Milenia Pants with Nomex Coat, P84 Pants with PBI Coat and so on and so forth. Therefore if you mix the outer shells you are wearing a non-compliant set of gear. Departments may do it, but just because they do it....does that make it safe? It makes no sense to me to mix and match outer shells. You will in most cases be wearing a set of gear where one component will fail before the other. The example of Advacne and PBI that you give above is a prime example. You have pants that provide a flash rating of around 1100 Degrees and a Coat that has a flash rating of nearly 1300 or better....

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  • NYSmokey
    replied
    I advised our chief and other line officers about this research regarding Zylon. I listed numerous links about the failure of Zylon due to everyday environmental conditions in ballistic armor. I said it was something we might want to look into with a large order of Millenia on the way. I was told by our chief that none of the officers had a problem with it so he didn't either. If I had to do it again though, I'd still say my piece.

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  • Resq14
    replied
    Re: Odd isn't it

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    Those who care to pursue it may find that another favorite fabric of firefighters across this country is also subject to UV degradation;PBI.
    I think you'll find that Zylon degrades much faster than PBI or aramids based on this information. Most of these modern fabrics (aramids, etc) are susceptible to damage from UV exposure. But I was shocked to read the extent of damage specifically Zylon.

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    Odd isn't it

    Those who care to pursue it may find that another favorite fabric of firefighters across this country is also subject to UV degradation;PBI.It seems whenever we make a "better"fabric,there is always a "Dark Side".Now I'll debate Securitex with anyone via private E-mail,I think I've dropped enough hints here.Could always go back to rubber I suppose;oh wait they don't make real rubber anymore.Mention was made of PBI Matrix,I'm currently trying to get some good info on that.The saga continues.T.C.

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  • Resq14
    replied
    Poly-phenylene benzobisoxazole (Zylon)

    hehe. Well here is the post I had in another thread about Zylon, the secondary ingredient in Millenia (40% Zylon/60%Technora). I do not have any imformation on Technora that would indicate rapid performance degradation. As an aramid Technora would most likeley be UV sensitive to some extent. I don't know about heat and humidity though. So, I present the below post on Zylon.

    =================

    Recently, there has been a great deal of discussion about Zylon (a major portion of Millenia) degrading SIGNIFICANTLY in hot, humid conditions. This has mainly dealt with Zylon as used in ballistic body armor ("bulletproof vests").

    I was wondering if anyone has any information about this as it relates to its use in PPE... it has a 5 year warranty as advertised. Just wondering if anyone has had issues yet. I hadn't seen this discussed here yet, but I figure it's quite important given the "hot and humid" conditions, since that's pretty much where we all end up at some point or another. The study below by Toyobo (who makes Zylon) also shows that routine exposure to fluorescent lights--in addition to sunlight--seriously alters the strength of Zylon.

    http://www.toyobo.co.jp/e/seihin/kc/pbo/technical.pdf

    FYI a ballistic vest made of Zylon failed and a patrolman was injured when he was shot. The Zylon vest was rated to stop the round that struck him. A major manufacturer is releasing some pretty serious info about the vests, and sending out "upgrades" to anyone who has one. SecondChance writes, "When introduced, the early degradation of this miracle fiber (ZYLON®) was not predicted by anyone in our industry. This new advanced fiber is the strongest man made fiber in the world. It allowed vest manufacturers to make vests so thin and light that it virtually removed the burden of wearing armor. Little did we know where this new fiber would lead us."

    An interesting thing to note is the publish/revision date of the document - 2001. Who knows when the testing was done and when they actually had the data...

    Many PD's are replacing all of their vests on an emergency basis.
    tony
    Last edited by Resq14; 10-12-2003, 09:23 PM.

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  • pyroknight
    replied
    I just wanted to thank our local Securitex factory rep for stopping by !

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  • ppeadvice
    replied
    Millenia and 2F3

    Hey Donnelyfire:

    This is quite the thread isn't it! Boy, I see alot of people taking an avid interest in turnout gear. You guys talk alot about TPP when comparing fabrics and durability etc. You know, we all have it wrong. What we should be concerning ourselves with is what all this gear does when it's been used for a little while. Remember,, You guys spout numbers, and TPP's when you know that all this data is based on simulated fireground activities that are out of a lab. The comment made regarding millenia and it's durability and strength after a little exposure to light is absolutely right! How do I know? Because I know!! Let me tell you something else! It doesn't matter what outer shell you buy when it comes to thermal protection. It all depends on the 3 layers, how the garment fits, and how well the garment uses air as an insulator. As far as durability and guarantees are concerned, next time check the disclaimer associated with these fabric guarantees. Let me tell you, you need a lawyer to figure out the liability.

    I believe Donnelly mentioned 2F3. Interesting fabric from Securitex. Should you check into it? Absolutely. But remember. This is a proprietary fabric from Securitex. Call users of the fabric and check out what it does! I heard the stuff has excellent balanced properties.
    Strong, UV resistant, flexible, and sheds water like crazy. I recommend you do your own research on that fabric since the other manufacturers cannot sell it and may not like you pursuing it!!

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  • pyroknight
    replied
    If you get a minute guys (and gals), browse the report on the other post regarding Zylon fabric. The most interesting statistic that I saw was the fact that Zylon loses 35% of its strength after 6 months of exposure to daylight or flourescent light. NOT direct sunlight, ANY light. THAT concerns me. How much strength does it lose after a year? Three years? I know it has a five year warranty, but with that kind of degradation it probably has a five year service life!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue101
    replied
    TPP

    Tpp between PBI and Millenia with the same thermal barrier and moisture barrier aren't so far apart.I've been field testing a set of Millenia for almost a year now.So far I'm favorably impressed.The MFG apparently has some faith in the fabric too,they've put a five year warranty in place.Is it for everyone? No!But if you need an outer that has good flame properties and excellent wear properties it may be one to consider.Supposedly they have a new offering,PBI matrix that is better and tougher than Millenia.This I gotta see.Try to get a Globe information kit,it has swatches of the most common outer fabrics that have been through the flame test.The only one you can't push your thumb thru is Millenia.What's that prove?Not much outside of the fact it's a pretty tough fabric.When choosing gear there are many items that need to be considered,what works for me may not work for you.Price is my LAST consideration,Comfort,protection and service life come first.T.C.

    Leave a comment:


  • choad33
    replied
    Originally posted by captstanm1
    donellyfire...I sent you an email.... did you get it?

    NYsmokey....clarification.. What I meant was this...for sake of an example...If you wear a Nomex Coat you and Advance pants the ensemble is not compliant. The use of different fabrics is not considered compliant because the provide different levels of protection. Additionally, you should not be wearing a coat from ABC Fire Gear and Pants from XYZ Fire Gear. Those two pieces were not tested together and even though ABC is compliant and XYZ are compliant they are not compliant when put together...

    Hope that makes it clear.
    I think you only have if half correct. You may NOT wear mixed brands of gear. As for wearing mixed types of fabric ie Black Pbi coat and a Black Advance pants I have never heard anything wrong with that as long as the fabric meets standards it is ok. Many fire departmnts that I sell to do this due this. A coat with higher thermal rating is used to protect the "vitals" in the torso. The coat sees more heat. While the pants are a hight physical strength materal so they last longer. I fail to see why this would be wrong. The protective qualities of the gear is made up of all THREE layers not just the outershell. You can spec gear with diffrent outershells and end up with the same ttp rating in the end for the coat and pants by using diffrent thermal and vapor barriers

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  • captstanm1
    replied
    Well....good luck....but remember this... NFPA Standards are Concenous Standards and are not mandatory unless the authority having jurisdiction adopts them. Then they become "required." If a Department decides not to go by them it is ok.. Not much will happen unless someone gets hurt....then....."open comes the can of worms."

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  • NYSmokey
    replied
    I hear ya loud and clear captstanm1. Unfortunately, those at the top don't want to hear that. I have brought to their attention numerous issues and they have mostly fallen on deaf ears. I will reference the NFPA standard and maybe they will read it. Thanks again.

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  • captstanm1
    replied
    donellyfire...I sent you an email.... did you get it?

    NYsmokey....clarification.. What I meant was this...for sake of an example...If you wear a Nomex Coat you and Advance pants the ensemble is not compliant. The use of different fabrics is not considered compliant because the provide different levels of protection. Additionally, you should not be wearing a coat from ABC Fire Gear and Pants from XYZ Fire Gear. Those two pieces were not tested together and even though ABC is compliant and XYZ are compliant they are not compliant when put together...

    Hope that makes it clear.

    Leave a comment:


  • DonnellyFire
    replied
    Thanks for the info guys. I found that Millenia has a pretty low thermal protection score. I think we are going to hold out on Millenia. I cannot find to many people wearing it. Capt Stan, have you heard much about Securitex 2F3 outershells? I am looking into that also. It looks like pretty good stuff. Thanks for your help!

    Leave a comment:


  • NYSmokey
    replied
    captstanm1,

    They are wearing Globe coats. I will advise our chief of that. If anyone is able to find any info on the negative impact of firefighting duties on Zylon I'd appreciate a heads up. The cops are having lots of problems with that material (a major component of Millenia) Thanks.

    Leave a comment:

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