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Lake Park Fla--Residents Take Issue with "2 In-2 Out"

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  • #16
    "How would you feel if your house was burning and no one did anything?"

    Umm how would you fell if two men went in, something went wrong and nobody came out, cause there wasn't anybody else there to help them. Just to save what, some walls, maybe a fiew fish, a cat or two? Read my signature. Controling the losses includeing loss of our Firefighters.
    - FF/NREMT-P
    Norton Shores, MI

    "We didn't cause the emergency, were just here to control the losses"
    Keep it safe


    • #17
      Adze....I know there is Florida OSHA and we seem to say that we are follwing the OSHA Standards related to CFR1910.120 and we reference NFPA 472 & 473 and Discuss 1710 and 1721 and most folks refer to 1961 when ordering hose and 1971 when purchasing gear. The Wildland Standard is also referenced quite regularly in bidding processes.

      But I would venture to say that it varies in the state from north to south and from east to west as to what standards are used and followed. The makeup of the State goes from very large metropolitan departments to small 12-15 person volunteer departments and has every combination thereof in between. I do know that Florida IAFF drives the a lot of standards that relate to training and the Florida Fire College. That became painly obvious when they pushed for a mandatory program in the state for volunteers to have that most can not meet and one that is also not offered in a way that would make it convenient for the volunteers to take it.
      09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
      IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
      "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
      BMI Investigator
      The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.


      • #18
        WHAT HE SAID!!!!!

        Originally posted by radioguy

        What drives me nuts is places that will totally disband or allow to deteriorate thier volunteer program the minute they get a handfull of paid FF's on the payroll, assuming thats enough. ANY station can maintain at least some volunteers if they wish, it is just a matter of recruiting and retention, and any area that has a good enough tax base to afford paid men surely has enough residents that you can find some willing volunteers.

        90% of the time when I hear folks say they can't find volunteers, it is not that there are not any who would do so out there, but that either the station leadership is not trying to recruit or retain them or that they end up getting treated like crap by the paid guys and leadership and leave. Any community can give you volunteers if you put forth a little effort.

        It's not the fault of the firefighters, but of the leadership and the local government.

        I don't remember when I've seen something stated this clearly. IMHO There is absolutely no excuse for not having Volunteers ANYWHERE. Stay Safe....
        Last edited by hwoods; 09-11-2003, 12:55 AM.
        Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
        In memory of
        Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
        Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

        IACOJ Budget Analyst

        I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.



        • #19
          According to the Palm Beach County FD website:
          1114 career firefighters
          100 volunteer firefighters
          39 fire stations excluding Palm Beach Gardens & Pahokee
          197 minimum daily staffing
          653,104 population served
          $184 million FY 02/03
          87,512 total calls FY 01/02
          6 minutes 31 seconds average response time

          Lake Park Rescue-Engine 68 is a 1994 Freightliner FL80 built by Ferrara. It has a 1250 gallon per minute top-mount pump and carries 750 gallons of water. It also functions as an Advanced Life Support Paramedic Unit.

          From looking at the map, there are 2 other stations that appear to be "realatively" close to 68.

          While volunteers can increase manpower (I'm a volunteer on my days off from being a career firefighter) volunteers, just like paid firefighters are not going to save the world.

          "I smelled smoke, and I walked outside, and saw smoke coming out of the eaves," he said. "I walked back into the kitchen and picked up the phone to call 911, but the phone was dead."

          He couldn't see smoke inside the house, but smoke is coming out of the eaves. The fire was in the roof. How long will it take to engulf the roof from one end of the house to the other? Not long. Takes responding first due engine 6 minutes to arrive from the time of 911 call. Could a volunteer engine have made it to the scene in less time with more manpower? I don't know. Could a volunteer company have made any difference? I don't know. CaptStan said that "mandatory program in the state for volunteers to have that most can not meet and one that is also not offered in a way that would make it convenient for the volunteers to take it." So, in this sense, would it be better to have a company full of "under trained" (for lack of a better term) volunteer members or a crew of 3 trained, paid firefighters with back up 4 & 6 minutes out respectively?

          I do agree that you get what you pay for. Well trained, experianced firefighters put out fires, not fire trucks. And isn't it always the case that the contents burned are much more valuble burned then they were new?

          Just my thoughts...



          • #20
            1114 career firefighter, 100 volunteers.

            I bet 90% or better of those volunteers are only such as they are trying to get a paid job, and the leadership could care less about anybody that just wants to volunteer.

            Would a full volunteer company have been better or do better in a case like this? Who knows. But would having enough volunteers that one could have shown up with the first due have made a difference, I say definitly. 1 or 2 more guys on the scene early on can often make a huge difference. In a case like this, I stand by my earlier statement, if you cannot keep enough paid manpower in each station to do the basic tasks like a simple interior attack, than you need to keep volunteer manpower to supplement it. It's cheap, simple, and effective help.

            As far as Floridas new rules, what they have done is require a FF1 cert before you can even go on a fireground. Here we only allow untrained folks to fill a support role on the fire ground, such as running the cascade system, swapping air bottles, rehab, etc, and barring them from the fireground completely seems a little harsh to me, but I could live with it.

            What I couldn't live with is Floridas training, or lack of availability of training. From everything I hear from down there it is extremly hard to get FF1 & 2 classes outside the state fire academy. Why? The guys at the Academy are a driving force behind a lot of these rules, and the more they force to come to them the more $$$ they get in funding. Most volunteers that do not plan to make a career of firefighting down the road can not afford to take a couple months off from work and go attend the fire academy. If you don't work to make the classes available in a fashion they can attend, but require them to have them, well thats just stupid. Here anyone who wants can easily have thier FF1 & 2 in 6 months of nights and a few weekends if they put a little effort into it. From what I am told in many parts of FL that would be impossible even in twice the time.

            Oh, and don't plan on moving to FL and having any of your certifications transfer either, A friend of mine was, strictly as a volunteer, FF2, HAZMAT ops, EMT-I, ERT, and Instructor certified. His job transferred him to FL, and they told him they would let him challenge the FF2 test but nothing else, and then wanted every training document that ever existed from his 20 years of service and a whole lot more. He said he spent 8 months compiling a 2 inch thick stack of aperwork before he was even allowed to challenge the test, and kept being told "why don't you just come through the academy". He said he never saw a system that made it so hard to try to help people in your spare time.

            You guys from Florida correct me if I am wrong, I get all this second hand.


            • #21
              I have been volunteering on my dept for 16 years. None of my
              training night times count at all. We start our state required
              training tonight. I will not go into full rant mode but I will
              agree with anyone who says fla is out to screw the VFDs.
              I have a full time job 60 hrs a week that pays the bills and there
              is no way to go to a school any where around here. We are getting
              our training from a neighboring depts trainer. We have had many
              sessions with this department but this dose not count with the
              state. I know training is a good thing I know I will learn somthing
              in this 160hr course I know I have been learning for 16 years and
              the day you stop learning its time to hang up the helmet BUT
              I also know I do not need 8hrs on how to roll a F$$$$$ing fire
              hose. Its kind of stange to start my training on 9-11

              sorry did not mean to go on for so long


              • #22
                Re: WHAT HE SAID!!!!!

                Originally posted by hwoods
                There is absolutely no excuse for not having Volunteers ANYWHERE. Stay Safe....
                There is in my community. The fire in question happened shortly after Noon. You'd be hard pressed to get more than three of the 24 volunteers in my combo. department to show up at that time of day.


                • #23
                  Re: Re: WHAT HE SAID!!!!!

                  Originally posted by cozmosis
                  There is in my community. The fire in question happened shortly after Noon. You'd be hard pressed to get more than three of the 24 volunteers in my combo. department to show up at that time of day.
                  I think what hwoods was saying was (and correct me if I'm wrong, Chief) was that there is no excuse for not having a volunteer roster. There are a thousand reasons why volunteer manpower could be low for a specific call at a specific time. The point was that they do not have any volunteers, period.

                  ... and thanks Mikey!

                  Stay Safe


                  • #24
                    Maybe I'm missing something here but arrival times of 6,10,and 12 minutes in my neck of the woods aren't too shabby.As Bruno says"Some buildings are built to burn,others have sprinklers."Too many times we endanger personnel for an already wasted house.This is SUPPOSED to be the SMARTEST generation yet,why are we still getting killed the same way we have for years.I'm sorry this guy lost his house but what part of underinsured is our problem?I wonder if the learning curve has expanded?T.C.


                    • #25
                      Multiple simultaneous points of ignition in voids spaces.

                      Sprinklers and a NFPA 1601 compliant response aren't changing the outcome of this one folks.

                      Volunteers may help, but I'm going out on a limb and assuming this is mostly a retirement-type area so their ability to recruit younger volunteers and have them available during the day when they're at work is probably limited. Resort & Retirement type communities skew demographics, so you have fewer young people for the population, and they're usually busy at their paying jobs since the areas typically have a lot more work than workers.

                      Regarding Florida's OSHA status, I remember this from a year or two back. FL is *not* an OSHA state. They do have a state agency that regulates municipal employers, but it doesn't operate as a State-Plan OSHA. So it isn't required to meet the minimums of FedOSHA, and as such, FL adopted a slightly modified version of 2in/2out which basically substitutes, "You really should consider having..." for "Must"
                      IACOJ Canine Officer


                      • #26
                        What a Can of Worms.......

                        Are we havin' fun yet?? Couple of points. Yes, my remarks regarding Volunteers was meant to reflect my opinion that ALL departments should have a Volunteer force available. The degree of participation reflects local needs, based on staffing needs, call volume, and other factors. An example, if I may, is my own department. We have a 5 person career crew that works 0700 to 1700 weekdays. To provide a 40 hr week, they each work 4 days each week. These folks take whatever is first out for the type of call at the moment. With a Tower Ladder, A Heavy Rescue, 2 Engines, A Brush Rig, and a BLS Ambulance, they can't do everything, so any available Volunteers fill out the crew for whatever is needed. We average about 5 Volunteers during the day when the career crew is on duty, and with the career folks, we have a good crew. Our ALS Unit has Career medics assigned 24/7, they work a 24 on, 72 off, shift. Add the fact that we are part of a County wide operation that dispatches individual Volunteer stations like they are all part of one organization, and we have the best of both worlds, an independent Volunteer fire department, working in an urban, high call volume (9,137 responses last year) setting that provides experiences unparalleled elsewhere.

                        Second, If your current system provides for Volunteers, but you are having problems with staffing, YOU are the one who needs to fix the problem. There ARE people who will volunteer, you have to go out and find them, Even in retirement communities. At (almost) 62 I am a retiree in almost every sense of the word, and I Volunteer a lot, not only at my VFD, but in other organizations as well. I'll say it again, PEOPLE WILL VOLUNTEER, You have to go bring them in. I am far from the oldest Volunteer in my VFD, in fact, with 45 years on, I'm about 14th on the seniority list. The 1,080 runs that I racked up last year wasn't the highest in the company either. So, in a nutshell, there aren't any good reasons for not having Volunteers, only poor excuses.

                        Last, I can't keep quiet on this. The Florida State Fire Training system is Broken. Period. It is not driven by a desire to help Florida's firefighters, but by GREED. It's all about money and nothing else. Florida is the reason that I fully support Federal legislation requiring all 50 states to accept National Pro Board Certification from any other state, and teach to the same standard everywhere. As usual, the National Volunteer Fire Council is ignoring this issue. Stay Safe....
                        Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                        In memory of
                        Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                        Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                        IACOJ Budget Analyst

                        I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.



                        • #27
                          Correct, FL is not on the list; see here:


                          A couple of other points:

                          There is 2 exceptions to 2 in/2 out, both in NFPA and in OSHA: One mentioned above about immediate rescue situations (very interpretable huh?) and the other allows one of the "out" people to serve a secondary function that will not interfere with his rescue responsibilities (equally muddy, huh?)

                          No NFPA standard or code is law until a jurisdiction adopts it. yes I'm well aware lawyers pick them up anyway, and so do OSHA compliance folks, under their general duty clause.


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