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WE"RE NOT READY...The PROOF

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  • leadlo
    replied
    George is right about the outcome of police/fire dept. the cops will always get the money. Here is what I see is the big problem with the fire service. Most of the fire service is volunteer, police have always been full time. When I joined the fire service, we recieved the same training as the full time dept. but they had their heads so far up their ***, we were nothing more than a joke to them. Now 20 some years later they have found out there are things we can do that they have only heard of, mostly doing our job for nothing. Now with the big city cuts we are more than welcome when they are shorthanded. This is the where the polices' "united front" comes in, instead of constantly picking fights amongst themselves they work together to achieve a common goal. I think the fire service could learn something from them. Yes the IAFC is a great organization and probably the best hope we have. My community consists of 26 square miles, 20 of them are twp. with the other 6 being a city right in the middle of the twp. we are the only joint entity ruled by a fire commision, made up of twp and city officials. There is a combined population of 40,000, the twp police budget is a little over 4 million and the city a little over 1 million. Here comes the really cool part our TOTAL fire budget is $560,000, so when the officials tell us we got the same 3% that the police got, it doesn't do much for us (you do the math). We are 50 members strong and to date have not recieved one dime of grant money. Yeah we would love for the fed govt to help us out!

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    Originally posted by Bones42
    Here's a radical idea. If PD have their act together so well and are able to get all this Federal funding, would it be such a bad idea to consolidate FD and PD into 1 organization? Just have a Fire/EMS division of the PD? Get rid of any duplicated services, enjoy 1 bigger bunch of Fed money? Isn't this kind of happening in parts of Florida?

    Just an outside thought for comments.
    This is a horrible idea and has failed in far more places than it has suceeded. There are different issues and different mentailities. The PD people are always chosen to adminster the agency and the fire service is an after thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    >>I can't beleive this because I know of municipalities around here who stated flatly that they were hiring cops with money from this program, the one you call a sham. If you can explain how it was a sham I am all ears. <<

    It was a sham because the program was in name only. The program you are tlkaing baout is another Congressionally sponsored program called Safe Streets, that did put local cops on.

    >>One or two more would be welcome. It only takes three to add one more person to a shift. If the feds kicked in one or two, more municipalities could add one person per shift. <<

    How do you add one ff per shift to 80% of the FD's in the US who are volunteer? You can't "buy" volunteers.

    >>I still haven't heard a good explaination of why you are okay with federal money for cops. Your above statement is an example of your right wing ideology. Clinton program a sham, but George H. W. provided "real grants". <<

    I never said I was "OK" with it. I do not believe that federal money should be spent on local government responsibilities. Every day fire and police activity is a local problem. Period. But if you will read back, I said that I believed that the federal government should fund things that are special programs. These programs, IMHO, would include anything that is clearly a federal initiative. For example, the federal government should absolutely be funding wildland fire efforts on BLM land.

    As far as the war on terrorism, it is an absolute fact that law enforcement has dedicated itself to being the front line int he fight here in the US. There are agencies that have people devoted full time to this effort. It is right to give law enforcement this money because they are working ont his problem every day, in order to prevent it. Terrorism is a federal level problem.

    And there is money out there for the fire service. As I said earlier, you have to have aplan for the money and you have to work with the OEM people to get it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    Here's a radical idea. If PD have their act together so well and are able to get all this Federal funding, would it be such a bad idea to consolidate FD and PD into 1 organization? Just have a Fire/EMS division of the PD? Get rid of any duplicated services, enjoy 1 bigger bunch of Fed money? Isn't this kind of happening in parts of Florida?

    Just an outside thought for comments.

    Leave a comment:


  • captstanm1
    replied
    I am not sure where to go with this...but as 5pts says... "we don't need the same stuff as Bigtown FD but if they call us to help it would be nice to have the basics."

    I am sure we all agree on that point.

    It seems that no matter how much funding we get we never have enough. Tax rates or millage rates (at least in fla) are outrageous and fire departments still struggle to survive. Then add in the territorial battles (such as Pasco County and Hernando County Fla) and some fire departments lose a good percentage of what they were getting. So much so that they may face extinction. Can we afford to lose fire departments in the US? I don't think so.

    So...where do we get the funding????? I am not sure...but I think that the federal government should step in and help out more than they do. Will it ever be enough? NO... Will we ever be totally prepared? NO!!! But we need the help and and it has to come from somewhere.

    Why can't some of the billions and billions of dollars recovered in Iraq be diverted to the Fire Service? Heck...the police divert seized drug money and articles into money for funding.

    What is the total answer.????? I don't know.

    Leave a comment:


  • Duffman
    replied
    George, Now I have to disagree

    There isn't one single cop on the street today because of that smoke and mirrors sham.
    I can't beleive this because I know of municipalities around here who stated flatly that they were hiring cops with money from this program, the one you call a sham. If you can explain how it was a sham I am all ears.



    The upsides are, well, you get more people. Just bear in mind that the vast majority of police departments only got one or two people under the last real grants back in the late 80's.
    One or two more would be welcome. It only takes three to add one more person to a shift. If the feds kicked in one or two, more municipalities could add one person per shift.

    I still haven't heard a good explaination of why you are okay with federal money for cops. Your above statement is an example of your right wing ideology. Clinton program a sham, but George H. W. provided "real grants".

    There is some validity to your comments about the fire services efforts in Washington. I have posted in another thread about that problem. I am more optimistic than you that it can change.

    Here is how I see it playing out.

    One of the big three (IAFF, IAFC, NVFC) will become a major player in Washington (the IAFF currently has the 33rd largest PAC) enabling them to advance their agenda. There will be some benefit for all firefighters, but obviously these groups differ on some issues.

    or

    They will join forces and advance their common agenda while fighting each other on other issues at the same time.

    The former seems the more likely scenario.

    Leave a comment:


  • ff7134
    replied
    Well here is my 2 cents. I believe that we are again being ignored by the congress and the people with the purse strings. I do understand that the police are important in helping prevent a attack. But they also need to look at hey people who have to deal with the effects AFTER an attack. We have repeatedly talked to the EMA director about getting us(the County HAZMAT team)WMD rated airpacks. Our team not only covers our county but 2 others and is on automatic standby for another. But they would rather spend their $ buying the PD's gas mask and detectors for their cars. We have asked to replace our 1972 Pepsi Truck with something newer that actually runs....nope the Sheriffs office needs a bomb sniffing dog.

    I think they need to have one group that takes care of the Police and one that takes care of Fire/EMS. Because when the Poop hits the fan, we ALL will be their with a shovel.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    Re: This is where we part ways

    Originally posted by Duffman


    Yes I do.

    Believe me, primary responsibility for funding does rest with those who receive it. In my dept. to the tune of over $10,000,000 annually.

    Tell me this. Why is it okay for the feds to dole out grant money to put more cops on the street, but not okay to put firefighters in firehouses?

    I am not just talking about terrorism funding, but assistance for everyday firefighting and EMS.

    If a local police department can get federal money to hire more cops, certainly the fire service is worthy.
    Nobody here was talking about personnel up until this point. There are upsides and downsides to these personnel grants. BTW, don't waste your time talkiung about Clinton's 100,000 cops. There isn't one single cop on the street today because of that smoke and mirrors sham.

    The upsides are, well, you get more people. Just bear in mind that the vast majority of police departments only got one or two people under the last real grants back in the late 80's.

    The downsides are that these positions are only funded for a limited amount of time, usually three years. After that, the department faces the choice of picking up the salary or laying off the personnel. The other downside is that there are often rules set about who you can hire. Back in the 70's, under the CETA program, they paid for cops, but you had to hire under certain guidelines that may be different than how you are hiring today.

    The deeper reason is why are the cops getting this. I have said this before. The answer is so simple, I don't know why people even ask.

    1. If you look at the agenda of the major police organizations, they are basically the same. They have a united front. They have a lobby and they have a voice. They are awfully good at the political game. You couldn't get 12 fire fighters to agree if water was wet. I am confident that it will always be this way. You will never get the fire service into a united front. Just go to CFSI. There are thousands of fire fighters there to hobnob with their legislators...for ten thousand different little projects; many of them most people would consider pork. The fire service historically cannot ever get the big picture.

    2. Historically, the fire service has always done more with less. They do things for themselves (I've said this a hundred times before too). How many police officers clean their own bathrooms, wash their own patrol cars, build their own police station or fabricate their own equipment? Close to zero. How FF do things like this? Close to alot. It is our culture that allows to do amazing things with limited resources. So the outsiders think we are OK.

    BTW Duff, with direct federal involvement in the funding of the fire service, you are going to get all the baggage that comes with it. I don't think that is a desirable picture.

    Leave a comment:


  • Duffman
    replied
    This is where we part ways

    1. Do you honestly want the federal government involved in direct funding of the fire service? I sure don't. Fire protection is a local proglem and should be locally funded. If there is a financial crisis or a special need, than there is a place for SUPPLEMENTAL funding (ala Fire Act). But the primary responsibility for fire service funding rests with the people who recieve the service.
    Yes I do.

    Believe me, primary responsibility for funding does rest with those who receive it. In my dept. to the tune of over $10,000,000 annually.

    Tell me this. Why is it okay for the feds to dole out grant money to put more cops on the street, but not okay to put firefighters in firehouses?

    I am not just talking about terrorism funding, but assistance for everyday firefighting and EMS.

    If a local police department can get federal money to hire more cops, certainly the fire service is worthy.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dushore5741
    replied
    No.. Your wrong. I didn't assume anything. I just posed my opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    Originally posted by E229Lt


    EMERGENCY RESPONDERS ACTION GROUP MEMBERS*

    AMERICAN COLLEGE OF EMERGENCY PHYSICIANS
    AMERICAN HOSPITALS ASSOCIATION
    AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
    CENTURY FOUNDATION
    COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERNMENTS
    COUNTY EXECUTIVES OF AMERICA
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF EMERGENCY MANAGERS
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE CHIEFS
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS
    INTERNATIONAL CITY COUNTY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION
    JOINT COMMISSION ON ACCREDITATION OF HEALTHCARE ORGANIZATIONS
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY AND CITY HEALTH OFFICIALS
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIANS
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC HOSPITALS & HEALTH SYSTEMS
    NATIONAL EMERGENCY NUMBER ASSOCIATION
    NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION
    NATIONAL LEAGUE OF CITIES
    NATIONAL MEMORIAL INSTITUTE FOR THE PREVENTION OF TERRORISM
    NATIONAL SHERIFF’S ASSOCIATION
    NATIONAL VOLUNTEER FIRE COUNCIL
    TRUST FOR AMERICA’S HEALTH
    THE U.S. CONFERENCE OF MAYORS

    * These organizations participated in the Emergency Responders Action Group that collected the data used
    in our budgetary analysis. They do not necessarily endorse the Task Force findings.
    OK. I see that there was adequate representation of emergency responders. But that doesn't diminish the shortcomings of the report.

    I applaud your research and your numbers, however, you assume every firefighter needs to be equipped as opposed to the on shift or minimum manning per unit, in the volunteer's case.
    Excellent point. It also doesn't address the equipment that is already out there.
    When someone in Washington decides to raise the Terror Alert to Orange they should also be ready to reach into their pockets and help some of the cities who's budgets get blown out of the water by that very stroke of the bureaucratic pen.
    Another excellent point. When we go Orange, because of our proximity to NYC (30 miles due West), we fire up the EOC and place it in a "turn the switch on" mode. We also cancel training and some time off for our critical people. We also have Intelligence people and WMD people on OT. That's just us. I can imagine what it must be like within that 30 mile circle.

    If you have to go Orange, fine. But there should be a damn good, articulable, reason.
    Last edited by GeorgeWendtCFI; 08-03-2003, 03:41 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • E229Lt
    replied
    Can we ever be fully prepared?
    No, but we can always be better prepared.

    I applaud your research and your numbers, however, you assume every firefighter needs to be equipped as opposed to the on shift or minimum manning per unit, in the volunteer's case.

    Training? By all means, all of us.

    Ya know something, it was the Senate who endorsed the study and it's the Senate who ignores the findings.

    When NYC had the McKinsey Report done, it took steps to address the findings.

    When someone in Washington decides to raise the Terror Alert to Orange they should also be ready to reach into their pockets and help some of the cities who's budgets get blown out of the water by that very stroke of the bureaucratic pen.

    This report was not about grants and it was not about the Feds sending one dime directly to Littletown FD.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dushore5741
    replied
    Emergency Responders: Drastically Underfunded, Dangerously Unprepared

    Dangerously Unprepared... For what? What Bill Clinton said was just there to scare us, that there was no need for a national organization to defend and protect civilians in time of Man-Made Disaster? That kind of Emergency?

    Until I began reading articles on these forums, I didn't know there was assistance available to organizations for disaster mitigation and preparedness. Don't get me wrong, we're not in the dark, it didn't just sneak up on us. There was training available to us, so we'd know what to look for in Bio-Terrorism situations. HazMat classes, Multiple Casualty Incident classes, Small pox, anthrax, everything you can think of since 9/11. Truth be told, I feel that agencies have be slightly overwhelmed. You can go through all the training, but then what? Unless you have a s**t load of supplies, what can you do except say "Don't touch it, stay away"..? NBC containment supplies, and Personnel Protection gear aren't cheap.
    Why use up your budget for the year, "Just in case" ?
    But you have to protect your community, you have to be there for them.
    But whose here for us? You know the second the Gov't. moves in, your not going to be in the picture, just in the way. So how much will it cost?

    Suppose you need to outfit EVERY single firefighter, emt, paramedic, and police officer in the United States (The "First Responders" to the situations) with a Chemical suit, SCBA, training, and necessary equipment.
    I did some research.
    There are 1,082,538 firefighter in the USA, 74% Volunteer, 26% Career. Of the total 31,114 fire departments in the country, 22,636 are all volunteer; 4,848 are mostly volunteer; 1,602 are mostly career; and 2,028 are all career. There are nearly 600,000 Registered EMTs and 142,000 Paramedics in the USA. There are 663,535 police officers in the USA, including town, state and sheriff's Depts.

    How much does Training cost for One (1) person?
    To "prepare" for a WMD or NBC situation-$500.00 per person

    How much does equipment and gear cost for One (1) person?
    SCBA-$1,700.00
    BIO Safe Respirator-$299.00
    NBC Safe Chemical Suit-$730.00

    Cost - $3,229.00
    --------------------------------------------------
    Fire Personnel- $3,495,515,202.00
    EMS Personnel- $2,395,918,000.00
    Police Personnel- $2,142,554,515.00

    Total for all: $8,033,987,717.00
    --------------------------------------------------
    If 1 in 10 Fire Dept's bought minimum equipment necessary to safely decontaminate their personnel the cost would amount to approx.
    Per Dept. - $5,290.00
    Total for all - $16,459,306.00

    1 in 20 wants to buy a Mass Casualty Kit... 1,555.7
    Per Dept. - $7,548.50
    Total for all - $11,737,917.50

    --------------------------------------------------

    New York, L.A. & Chicago want to buy N95 masks for all it's residents
    Population
    NY- 1,541,150 - $2,080,552.5
    LA- 9,979,600 - $13,472,460.00
    Chicago- 2,896,016 - $3,909,621.60

    Cost of one (1) mask- $1.35

    Total Cost- $19,462,634.10
    --------------------------------------------------
    Everyone should have respiratory protection....
    Population of USA- 284,796,887

    Total Cost- $384,475,797.50

    Total Cost to be slightly prepared by my standards:

    $8,466,123,372.10

    But of course, I didn't spend time to count everything thing that you'd need to treat people if something did happen... Medicine, oxygen, equipment for Hospital staff, triage supplies..... That'd amout to at least five times what I came to...
    That's over $4233061686 (To the 10th).

    I don't even know how much that is.... A lot? My calculator doesn't go that high. Just thinking of how much it would cost is terror in itself.

    Can we ever be fully prepared?
    Last edited by Dushore5741; 08-03-2003, 02:44 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 5pts384
    replied
    Being part of "DogpatchVFD" George you are correct we don't need the gear that is needed in "BigtownFD", at the same time if we are called to help it would be nice to have the basics.There should be someone (or more)on these commities that have a working knowedge of Fire-Rescue.

    Leave a comment:


  • E229Lt
    replied
    Also, there is not one single emergency responder on their committee.
    EMERGENCY RESPONDERS ACTION GROUP MEMBERS*

    AMERICAN COLLEGE OF EMERGENCY PHYSICIANS
    AMERICAN HOSPITALS ASSOCIATION
    AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
    CENTURY FOUNDATION
    COUNCIL OF STATE GOVERNMENTS
    COUNTY EXECUTIVES OF AMERICA
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF EMERGENCY MANAGERS
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE CHIEFS
    INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FIRE FIGHTERS
    INTERNATIONAL CITY COUNTY MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION
    JOINT COMMISSION ON ACCREDITATION OF HEALTHCARE ORGANIZATIONS
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF COUNTY AND CITY HEALTH OFFICIALS
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF EMERGENCY MEDICAL TECHNICIANS
    NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC HOSPITALS & HEALTH SYSTEMS
    NATIONAL EMERGENCY NUMBER ASSOCIATION
    NATIONAL FIRE PROTECTION ASSOCIATION
    NATIONAL LEAGUE OF CITIES
    NATIONAL MEMORIAL INSTITUTE FOR THE PREVENTION OF TERRORISM
    NATIONAL SHERIFF’S ASSOCIATION
    NATIONAL VOLUNTEER FIRE COUNCIL
    TRUST FOR AMERICA’S HEALTH
    THE U.S. CONFERENCE OF MAYORS

    * These organizations participated in the Emergency Responders Action Group that collected the data used
    in our budgetary analysis. They do not necessarily endorse the Task Force findings.

    Leave a comment:

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