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WE"RE NOT READY...The PROOF

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  • #16
    No.. Your wrong. I didn't assume anything. I just posed my opinion.

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    • #17
      This is where we part ways

      1. Do you honestly want the federal government involved in direct funding of the fire service? I sure don't. Fire protection is a local proglem and should be locally funded. If there is a financial crisis or a special need, than there is a place for SUPPLEMENTAL funding (ala Fire Act). But the primary responsibility for fire service funding rests with the people who recieve the service.
      Yes I do.

      Believe me, primary responsibility for funding does rest with those who receive it. In my dept. to the tune of over $10,000,000 annually.

      Tell me this. Why is it okay for the feds to dole out grant money to put more cops on the street, but not okay to put firefighters in firehouses?

      I am not just talking about terrorism funding, but assistance for everyday firefighting and EMS.

      If a local police department can get federal money to hire more cops, certainly the fire service is worthy.
      "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

      IACOJ

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: This is where we part ways

        Originally posted by Duffman


        Yes I do.

        Believe me, primary responsibility for funding does rest with those who receive it. In my dept. to the tune of over $10,000,000 annually.

        Tell me this. Why is it okay for the feds to dole out grant money to put more cops on the street, but not okay to put firefighters in firehouses?

        I am not just talking about terrorism funding, but assistance for everyday firefighting and EMS.

        If a local police department can get federal money to hire more cops, certainly the fire service is worthy.
        Nobody here was talking about personnel up until this point. There are upsides and downsides to these personnel grants. BTW, don't waste your time talkiung about Clinton's 100,000 cops. There isn't one single cop on the street today because of that smoke and mirrors sham.

        The upsides are, well, you get more people. Just bear in mind that the vast majority of police departments only got one or two people under the last real grants back in the late 80's.

        The downsides are that these positions are only funded for a limited amount of time, usually three years. After that, the department faces the choice of picking up the salary or laying off the personnel. The other downside is that there are often rules set about who you can hire. Back in the 70's, under the CETA program, they paid for cops, but you had to hire under certain guidelines that may be different than how you are hiring today.

        The deeper reason is why are the cops getting this. I have said this before. The answer is so simple, I don't know why people even ask.

        1. If you look at the agenda of the major police organizations, they are basically the same. They have a united front. They have a lobby and they have a voice. They are awfully good at the political game. You couldn't get 12 fire fighters to agree if water was wet. I am confident that it will always be this way. You will never get the fire service into a united front. Just go to CFSI. There are thousands of fire fighters there to hobnob with their legislators...for ten thousand different little projects; many of them most people would consider pork. The fire service historically cannot ever get the big picture.

        2. Historically, the fire service has always done more with less. They do things for themselves (I've said this a hundred times before too). How many police officers clean their own bathrooms, wash their own patrol cars, build their own police station or fabricate their own equipment? Close to zero. How FF do things like this? Close to alot. It is our culture that allows to do amazing things with limited resources. So the outsiders think we are OK.

        BTW Duff, with direct federal involvement in the funding of the fire service, you are going to get all the baggage that comes with it. I don't think that is a desirable picture.
        PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

        Comment


        • #19
          Well here is my 2 cents. I believe that we are again being ignored by the congress and the people with the purse strings. I do understand that the police are important in helping prevent a attack. But they also need to look at hey people who have to deal with the effects AFTER an attack. We have repeatedly talked to the EMA director about getting us(the County HAZMAT team)WMD rated airpacks. Our team not only covers our county but 2 others and is on automatic standby for another. But they would rather spend their $ buying the PD's gas mask and detectors for their cars. We have asked to replace our 1972 Pepsi Truck with something newer that actually runs....nope the Sheriffs office needs a bomb sniffing dog.

          I think they need to have one group that takes care of the Police and one that takes care of Fire/EMS. Because when the Poop hits the fan, we ALL will be their with a shovel.
          AKA: Mr. Whoo-Whoo

          IAFF Local 3900

          IACOJ-The Crusty Glow Worm

          ENGINE 302 - The Fire Rats

          F.A.N.T.A.M FOOLS FTM-PTB

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          • #20
            George, Now I have to disagree

            There isn't one single cop on the street today because of that smoke and mirrors sham.
            I can't beleive this because I know of municipalities around here who stated flatly that they were hiring cops with money from this program, the one you call a sham. If you can explain how it was a sham I am all ears.



            The upsides are, well, you get more people. Just bear in mind that the vast majority of police departments only got one or two people under the last real grants back in the late 80's.
            One or two more would be welcome. It only takes three to add one more person to a shift. If the feds kicked in one or two, more municipalities could add one person per shift.

            I still haven't heard a good explaination of why you are okay with federal money for cops. Your above statement is an example of your right wing ideology. Clinton program a sham, but George H. W. provided "real grants".

            There is some validity to your comments about the fire services efforts in Washington. I have posted in another thread about that problem. I am more optimistic than you that it can change.

            Here is how I see it playing out.

            One of the big three (IAFF, IAFC, NVFC) will become a major player in Washington (the IAFF currently has the 33rd largest PAC) enabling them to advance their agenda. There will be some benefit for all firefighters, but obviously these groups differ on some issues.

            or

            They will join forces and advance their common agenda while fighting each other on other issues at the same time.

            The former seems the more likely scenario.
            "We shouldn't be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in New York City."

            IACOJ

            Comment


            • #21
              I am not sure where to go with this...but as 5pts says... "we don't need the same stuff as Bigtown FD but if they call us to help it would be nice to have the basics."

              I am sure we all agree on that point.

              It seems that no matter how much funding we get we never have enough. Tax rates or millage rates (at least in fla) are outrageous and fire departments still struggle to survive. Then add in the territorial battles (such as Pasco County and Hernando County Fla) and some fire departments lose a good percentage of what they were getting. So much so that they may face extinction. Can we afford to lose fire departments in the US? I don't think so.

              So...where do we get the funding????? I am not sure...but I think that the federal government should step in and help out more than they do. Will it ever be enough? NO... Will we ever be totally prepared? NO!!! But we need the help and and it has to come from somewhere.

              Why can't some of the billions and billions of dollars recovered in Iraq be diverted to the Fire Service? Heck...the police divert seized drug money and articles into money for funding.

              What is the total answer.????? I don't know.
              09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
              ------------------------------
              IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
              "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
              BMI Investigator
              ------------------------------
              The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

              Comment


              • #22
                Here's a radical idea. If PD have their act together so well and are able to get all this Federal funding, would it be such a bad idea to consolidate FD and PD into 1 organization? Just have a Fire/EMS division of the PD? Get rid of any duplicated services, enjoy 1 bigger bunch of Fed money? Isn't this kind of happening in parts of Florida?

                Just an outside thought for comments.
                "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

                Comment


                • #23
                  >>I can't beleive this because I know of municipalities around here who stated flatly that they were hiring cops with money from this program, the one you call a sham. If you can explain how it was a sham I am all ears. <<

                  It was a sham because the program was in name only. The program you are tlkaing baout is another Congressionally sponsored program called Safe Streets, that did put local cops on.

                  >>One or two more would be welcome. It only takes three to add one more person to a shift. If the feds kicked in one or two, more municipalities could add one person per shift. <<

                  How do you add one ff per shift to 80% of the FD's in the US who are volunteer? You can't "buy" volunteers.

                  >>I still haven't heard a good explaination of why you are okay with federal money for cops. Your above statement is an example of your right wing ideology. Clinton program a sham, but George H. W. provided "real grants". <<

                  I never said I was "OK" with it. I do not believe that federal money should be spent on local government responsibilities. Every day fire and police activity is a local problem. Period. But if you will read back, I said that I believed that the federal government should fund things that are special programs. These programs, IMHO, would include anything that is clearly a federal initiative. For example, the federal government should absolutely be funding wildland fire efforts on BLM land.

                  As far as the war on terrorism, it is an absolute fact that law enforcement has dedicated itself to being the front line int he fight here in the US. There are agencies that have people devoted full time to this effort. It is right to give law enforcement this money because they are working ont his problem every day, in order to prevent it. Terrorism is a federal level problem.

                  And there is money out there for the fire service. As I said earlier, you have to have aplan for the money and you have to work with the OEM people to get it.
                  PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bones42
                    Here's a radical idea. If PD have their act together so well and are able to get all this Federal funding, would it be such a bad idea to consolidate FD and PD into 1 organization? Just have a Fire/EMS division of the PD? Get rid of any duplicated services, enjoy 1 bigger bunch of Fed money? Isn't this kind of happening in parts of Florida?

                    Just an outside thought for comments.
                    This is a horrible idea and has failed in far more places than it has suceeded. There are different issues and different mentailities. The PD people are always chosen to adminster the agency and the fire service is an after thought.
                    PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      George is right about the outcome of police/fire dept. the cops will always get the money. Here is what I see is the big problem with the fire service. Most of the fire service is volunteer, police have always been full time. When I joined the fire service, we recieved the same training as the full time dept. but they had their heads so far up their ***, we were nothing more than a joke to them. Now 20 some years later they have found out there are things we can do that they have only heard of, mostly doing our job for nothing. Now with the big city cuts we are more than welcome when they are shorthanded. This is the where the polices' "united front" comes in, instead of constantly picking fights amongst themselves they work together to achieve a common goal. I think the fire service could learn something from them. Yes the IAFC is a great organization and probably the best hope we have. My community consists of 26 square miles, 20 of them are twp. with the other 6 being a city right in the middle of the twp. we are the only joint entity ruled by a fire commision, made up of twp and city officials. There is a combined population of 40,000, the twp police budget is a little over 4 million and the city a little over 1 million. Here comes the really cool part our TOTAL fire budget is $560,000, so when the officials tell us we got the same 3% that the police got, it doesn't do much for us (you do the math). We are 50 members strong and to date have not recieved one dime of grant money. Yeah we would love for the fed govt to help us out!
                      Vintage Firefighter:
                      "The older I get the braver I was!"

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