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LDH planning and usage - longlay

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  • psfdjarrell
    replied
    There are spacer made to increase the size of your hose bed to make them taller. This will allow for more to be place in the hose bed itself. Next point with the possiblity of 3500' lays your dept may consider, if they haven't already to place a second or mabe thrid engine or engine takner combo with some of the LDH on it. This will help you over come your friction loss in the long lays. If the other trucks were not needed they could be put to use elsewere on the fireground.

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  • hazenfd
    replied
    It takes two guys 6 minutes and 30 seconds to lay all 8000 feet of five inch hose on our 2500 gpm Ferrara pumpers and flow water out the end. We flow 830 gpm with just one rig out of a portable monitor. With two in relay you only add 22% to the flow, a third rig adds just 11% more.

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    I personally could care if it's 4 or 5.As long as it's all the same.I'd rather have 5 for the extra fire flow but as I said,I'm up to my yazoo in 4",my crew HATES 5" and some days(today)it's not worth fighting over.I need more water,I put down another pipe.We've got some 5 coupled 4 and it's a MAJOR PITA.Now if I could just get these guys to get along.We need some sensitivity training.T.C.

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  • Fire304
    replied
    Yes and yes. I was just currious how much flow you'd get on that lay w/o help. Even 500gpm suplimented by tank water would get you a decent amount of knock down then enough to hold the fire down until you get a boost. We do carry a couple of 4-way hydrant valves here (I assume that's simular to your relay valve) but never lay them (spoiled by excellent hydrants and lots of 5").

    As to the labor of 5" vs. 4", I've loaded a fair bit of both types and can't say there's all that much difference, they both are heavy and suck when they are dirty. With a reel I don't think you are allowed to use the heavy excuse .

    We do lose a little hose bed capacity with the 5". Our tower has a 1000' 4" / 800' 5" bed, so we lose 200', but its a trade off well worth it since we have flown 1250gpm out our waterway (and the supply engine was maxed out, not sure how much more we could push) well above the capacity of the 4". The engines each carry 1200' of 5" but there is room for up to 1500' (not sure what that would do to our GVW's, might max them out).

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    A lesson grasshopper

    304,Two questions.Did you read my post all the way thru and are you familiar with relay valves?Assuming a normal fire load at site(1000 gpm or less)Recalculate your delivery with a 1250 pump cut in every 1000-1200'.That is what the relay valves do,allow you to get water flowing until more engines arrive then seamlessly cut them onto the relay valve never shuuting the 4" down and augment the supply.Understand that this doesn't work the best on the side of a mountain but will work nicely on the average city/rural job.I know we can flow capacity of the 4" on a full reel lay.Never flattened a coupling,have had fold failures but no more or less than the flat loaded stuff.Our hose is approaching 20yrs service so I expect some failures. The beauty of our system is we got enough plumbing to run a mess of LDH and still not strip all our equipment.I understand the 5" but my guys hate it,won't work with it,and for what big jobs we get I can put down multiple 4's and accomplish equivalent flows(figuring a single 5).If we had less four,I'd probably be inclined to replace it with 5",but since I'm up to my wazoo in 4" it's easier to let the canoe float.T.C.

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  • Dalmatian90
    replied
    Dal & 101, have you ever had problems with damage to the couplings or hose on the inside wraps of a reel? I've heard rumors (nobody uses reels around me) that on large reels the tension of the wrap can distort the storz fittings or chew up the hose.

    Never seen damage like that.

    We do have issues with what seems to be earlier-than-expected failures along the folded edge of the hose, and probably the leading thought is how "tight" it gets wound when wound properly. Carrying 4600' plus it's one of the larger reel systems, and we certainly have the drivetrain for it to pack tighter than most other systems, so we see distortion if it could happen! The failures are not excessive, just take different budgeting so instead of replacing all every 20 years, we replace 1/20th every year.

    And Neiowa's last question unfortunately surpasses my skill level in calculating hydraulics!

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  • 911WACKER
    replied
    Novel Approach

    A possible lower cost approach that you may want to look at is military surplus hose that comes in 500' lengths you can get it in 4" and 5", I think even 6". I would carry a split bed say around 1500' of the long lengths then say 1000' of the 100' standard lengths. Less couplings means more hose on the truck toward your goal of 3500', even a stakebody as a hose truck outfitted with 3-4000' of the surplus hose would give you flexability. In a relay situation with 5" you could go 1500' between pumpers and still flow apprx. 1000 gpm, or lay the whole 3500' and flow apprx. 675 gpm with one truck on the hydrant feeding the whole thing. Just some food for thought!!

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  • Fire304
    replied
    Dal & 101, have you ever had problems with damage to the couplings or hose on the inside wraps of a reel? I've heard rumors (nobody uses reels around me) that on large reels the tension of the wrap can distort the storz fittings or chew up the hose.

    Personally, I'd go with a split but linked 50/50 load (to be fexible) of 5" in 100' lengths primarily for ease of pick up, and with Stortz, never need to worry about fwd/rev lays. As others have mentioned, keep a 25' & a 15' roll, carry adaptors, and flat lay it with the couplings at the front of the bed. Don't try to acordian load it, the couplings are just too big and are bound to fetch up in the hose bed.

    Hey 101, ever try to flow all that 4" on your reel at once? My friction loss table says you'd get about 420gpm out of it @ 180psi, I'm curious if you've seen +/- of that? If you had 5" on there you should be able to squeeze close to 900gpm.

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  • neiowa
    replied
    Making progress in spec for our system plan

    Anyone care to express an opinion of fire flows in following system.

    Assume 200000gal tower is 10000ft from city limit. Tower overflow 1305 grade 1150. High point in City 1125. Minor/negligable elevation changes between tower and city limits (or within city). Hydrants 6" dry barrel on 8" valve/stub, 2x 5" Storz + 1x 2.5" outlets. Distribution system 8" PVC 1700" looped to 4000ft 6" PVC (8" main connected to the transmission main runs the length of city with a 6" loop one block over that runs parallel to the 8". Total of 5700ft in distribution system). All mains DR18.

    1. What flow would you project from 1 hydrant on 8" PVC distribution line 10000ft from the tower when transmission line is 8" PVC? If open a 2nd hydrant (large fire) what flow from #1 and from #2.

    2. Same assumptions except 10" PVC transmission line connected to 8"
    distribution.

    3. Same assumptions except 12" PVC transmission line connected to 8"
    distribution.

    I'm not going to try Hazel-Williams without some instruction.

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    Yes,Dept SOG requires a pumper at source even though we have some great hydrants.Depends on elevation of source to destination,but for the average long lay 1000+gpm at 75-100psi.The relay valves allow you to get into operation then add pumpers to augment the supply.Water around here isn't a problem but camp roads can be.T.C.
    Last edited by Rescue101; 07-29-2003, 06:04 PM.

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  • neiowa
    replied
    Re: Got it all

    Originally posted by Rescue101
    We've got the best of all worlds.Five Class A pumpers with a minimum of 1000 gal water on board each,1200' 4" on each Engine,a Reel truck with 3600' of 4"(used to have 4600')and a 750 pump on the front.Two relay valves round out the complement allowing us to pump the 4" to capacity up to a mile.
    I assume you have a engine at the hydrant/water source. What water volume/pressure are you able to get out of the hose a mile from the source? (any relay pumpers in the middle of the hoseline? Benefit of 5" is that don't have less head loss from friction than with 4" (6" performs even better but even harder to recover).

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  • Rescue101
    replied
    Got it all

    We've got the best of all worlds.Five Class A pumpers with a minimum of 1000 gal water on board each,1200' 4" on each Engine,a Reel truck with 3600' of 4"(used to have 4600')and a 750 pump on the front.Two relay valves round out the complement allowing us to pump the 4" to capacity up to a mile.The Reel is a single drum continuous coupled in 100's.Each engine carries twin 30' lengths (or 25s)to patch in when 100 is too much.We tried some 5" but the added weight and increased labor in picking it up negated the gains for the fire volume we have.If you have a big fire,we just lay more fours.I've seen five fours down on a good job.T.C.

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  • Dalmatian90
    replied
    Wait till you have to walk out that 500' section...the middle of which is downhill from either end!

    Long lays, LDH, and individual section sizes is a balancing act.

    Reels are efficient, but that's one hose you can lay. Depending on your flow needs, that can be adequate. But if you're looking at 2000gpm + range, split traditional hose beds give you the option one long lay or two medium lays w/ very high flow.

    Yes, I've been a fires where a dual-reel truck laid two lines simultaneously, but that's an exceptional situation and one where that company was dedicated to water supply so their firefighters could help the lines off the back to prevent tangling or other problems -- one line was coming off the rear reel, one of the forward reel.

    On reels, and to a lesser extent hosebeds, couplings take up volume. We use primarily 200' lengths, and our former Chief used to wonder out loud if we should've bought a single 600' length to the first off the reel -- we hardly ever if we ever have lay less than 600' for a fire, and if we needed to a short line like that could be hand-jacked with 4" of our attack truck. And yes, 600' isn't an unusual hand-jacking, I've been at fires we've hand jacked that much 5" across a field since the Engine would've otherwise laid close to a half mile following the road & driveways to the water hole.

    With reels, or other pick-up systems like the Fetch, it does help tilt the balance towards laying a line. Manpower and work is a factor. The labor savings makes it a little easier to committ to laying a line if you're still debating in your head if tankers are easier. Tankers take more manpower during the fire, but less afterwards. We seldom lay a line for residences -- we can handle those easily off tankers 90% of the time. But nothing beats the steady, high volume of the laid lines for commercial/agricultural buildings.

    Handling the long sections of hose is a task in itself. Our 200' lengths weigh about 200 lbs, so you need 3-4 average firefighters and a pry bar to move them if you don't have them on the reel (like when putting new lengths in service). Although a couple real truckies can be used in lieu of 3-4 hose jockies Draining can be a challenge, especially if the middle of the hose is in a hollow and you have to walk both ends uphill to drain it. Been there, done that...a lot. We do sometimes deploy an ATV as a hose squeezer.

    Even with our reel, not always are we able to re-load it in the field. I've seen it get so muddy, we've pickup trucked the hose back to quarters to wash it first before reloading. Draining lengths on a bitterly cold winter day is also a challenge to remove all the water before ice forms inside the hose. 200' lengths are hard enough to handle, I can't see using even longer ones outside of industrial settings where terrain & weather are more pleasant than we face!


    With all that babbling, what would I do?

    Split hose bed. I like the flexibility and don't think most departments see enough fire that reels are critical, if you got enough to lay with a reel, you got enough fire to justify laying from a hosebed.

    Long, but not unmanageable lengths. If you have a hosebed, space is not at a premium like it is on a reel. 100' and 200' sections should be fine for rural fire service. If you really, really want a long section, I'd put it as the top length of one of your hosebeds, with the other side of the hose bed have 100' lengths. You could then choose which side to use for a "short" lay -- pull the normal 1st off long length, or break the coupling joining the two beds, and lay a couple 100' lengths off from the other side.

    Another concern is the "backstep" complement. Here's where you keep your critical components -- a phantom pumper (5" inlet, 5" outlet, 4 - 2.5" outlets), a gated 5" wye, and a couple 50' and 25' 5" rolls that are used for fireground distribution. In normal operation, the 5" wye is used to feed one or two fireground pumpers. For us, that's normally our attacking Engine-Tank and our Ladder. For others it might be the attacking truck, and later on a second truck used either for backup or to run line around the rear, etc. It's better to feed each truck independently and coordinate so they don't steal water from one another, than to run two or more fireground pumpers in serial and have one truck have a problem that takes down the other truck (I don't know what, clogged intake maybe? Catches on fire? Hey, it could happen!). The phantom pumper is used in two rural situations. One is to setup a fire watch -- put the attack trucks back in service, use a couple lines off it to continue wetting down. Or the "Oh Schnikes" situation of simultaneous calls (or...you have two trucks and your attack pumper is out of service!) and letting the water supply pumper drop the phantom pumper and some handlines and then reverse lay to water.

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  • VollieFireman
    replied
    We have just redone the hose lay in our truck. We went from 1200' of 3 inch to 1000' of 5 inch plus 600' of 3 inch.

    The way we put it on is on a divided hose bed. The five inch is the first hose off the truck. If we go farther than 1000', we have a reducer from 5" to 2.5" so it is all preconnected.

    Shorter than 1000', we also have 50' and 25' lengths of 5" so we can connect without pulling extra hose off the truck.

    We have only had to do this once, and it worked out well for us. It was a real b---h to put it back on the truck, but it is well worth it.

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  • hwoods
    replied
    What in the.......

    LDH??.... Hmmm.... Er..... Got It! Long Damn Hose

    Leave a comment:

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