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  • #16
    Nozzles

    The tool at the very heart of every fireground operation is the nozzle. It it the weapon with which members enter into close-quarter combat with the enemy. It continues to amaze me that something so important to the fire service can be taken so lightly by so many. Unfortunately, firefighters and officers don't always have a choice in which nozzle they use; that choice has already been made for us. It seems to me that the reason there is such a "great debate" over which nozzle to use is because so many choose a nozzle that "feels right to them." I think that this piece of equipment deserves much more consideration that that. It's sad that any department should have to choose a nozzle in this day of technology. The nozzle of choice for interior firefighting should be an obvious selection based upon scientific data collected through thorough testing. Considering fire behavior, the critical fire flow, nozzle reaction, safety and reliability, the correct nozzle for the application of interior firefighting should be obvious (considering how different smooth bore nozzles are from combination fog nozzles). I know both will work, but the one that is best suited.......safest......this is based on test data, not opinions.......if you want a true answer....not another myth or opinion. I suggest reading: "Planning a Hose and Nozzle System For Effective Operations", Fire Engineering, April, 2003. Get the facts and then form your own conclusions.

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    • #17
      Smooth Bore, hands down. Maximum penetration with less steam. Fog nozzles are great for trash, car, and grass fires.

      Comment


      • #18
        and the debate marches ON !
        IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
        Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
        ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
        RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
        LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
        I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
        "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
        http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

        Comment


        • #19
          This topic stopped "Marching" many threads ago. It is now just being dragged along, dead and bloated, through sheer determination.
          Never argue with an Idiot. They drag you down to their level, and then beat you with experience!

          IACOJ

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          • #20
            ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! much better said !
            IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
            Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
            ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
            RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
            LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
            I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
            "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
            http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

            Comment


            • #21
              Said it before...saying it again....will repeat as necessary

              I am an advocate of using the SB when you need it. There is time and a place for SB and a time and place for Fog. With that in mind......there are nozzles out there(......one that I know for sure about...and others that make the claim....)that are great combination nozzles. The one that I know for sure....compared it side by side... is an automatic dual pressure nozzle that when in the low pressure setting will deliver a stream that is the same quality and has the same reach as a 15/16" SB nozzle. The advantage you ask???? Well....you have the capabilities of a SB as well as a fog for protection. With only a SB your flexibility is limited...and you have no luxorey of having a fog stream for protections.

              Additionally, any variation of the position of the shut-off in the ball valve for a SB will obstruct or deflect the stream often making it ineffective. Try this experiment. Take the automitac/dual pressure nozzle and place a small rock behind the screen ahead of the shut-off and flow it at normal pressure. There is barely a difference in the stream. Take the same rock and place it in the Ball-valve shut-off for the SB....MAJOR DEFLECTION. Additionally>>>try the automatic shut-off in different positions and see what happens to the quality of the stream. Pressure remains the same and GPM drops accordingly. Now...do the same with the ball-valve shut off for the SB....again....MAJOR STREAM DEFLECTION...
              09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
              ------------------------------
              IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
              "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
              BMI Investigator
              ------------------------------
              The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

              Comment


              • #22
                captstanm1, Your post says it all.....

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                • #23
                  Somebody else posted this here in these forums some time ago. I love it, and will repeat it here for the benefit of those who missed it the first time:

                  The tribal wisdom of the Dakota Indians, passed on from one generation to the next, says that when you discover you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
                  However, in modern business, because of the heavy investment factors to be taken into consideration, often other strategies have to be tried with dead horses, including, but not limited to, the following:

                  1. Buying a stronger whip.
                  2. Changing riders.
                  3. Threatening the horse with termination.
                  4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
                  5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they ride dead horses.
                  6. Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included.
                  7. Appointing an intervention team to reanimate the dead horse.
                  8. Creating a training session to increase the rider's load share.
                  9. Reclassifying the dead horse as living-impaired.
                  10. Change the form so that it reads: "This horse is not dead."
                  11. Hire outside contractors to ride the dead horse.
                  12. Harness several dead horses together for increased speed.
                  13. Donate the dead horse to a recognized charity, thereby deducting its full original cost.
                  14. Providing additional funding to increase the horse's performance.
                  15. Do a time management study to see if the lighter riders would improve productivity.
                  16. Purchase an after-market product to make dead horses run faster.
                  17. Declare that a dead horse has lower overhead and therefore performs better.
                  18. Form a quality focus group to find profitable uses for dead horses.
                  19. Rewrite the expected performance requirements for horses.
                  20. Promote the dead horse to a supervisory position. (This worked on my department. Oh, wait, that's dead HORSE, not dead HEAD. Nevermind.)
                  Omnis Cedo Domus

                  www.hinckleyfd.org

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    ROFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hereby recognize the man from Hinckley ..for his witty humor and other deadhead attributes ~ ! thats is hillarious !
                    IACOJ both divisions and PROUD OF IT !
                    Pardon me sir.. .....but I believe we are all over here !
                    ATTENTION ALL SHOPPERS: Will the dead horse please report to the forums.(thanks Motown)
                    RAY WAS HERE 08/28/05
                    LETHA' FOREVA' ! 010607
                    I'm sorry, I haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 hours.....what were we discussing?
                    "but I guarentee you I will FF your arse off" from>
                    http://www.firehouse.com/forums/show...60#post1137060post 115

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      OMG! I'm forwarding this to everyone I know who works in an FD or any other civic org.! Thank you Jay!
                      ________________________________________________
                      If you are new to posting please CLICK HERE for an essential lesson
                      ________________________________________________
                      A bad day in the boat is better than a good day in the office. And in my case the office is a boat!

                      IACOJ Fire Boat 1

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Great mention of the Fire Engineering article!

                        Here's some quotes:
                        Akin to the police evolving from the 38-caliber revolver to the 40-caliber automatic,

                        Huh, I always thought a revolver was much more reliable than those pesky new-fangled automatics you gotta keep clean, watch what ammo you're using, etc...

                        In his brilliant treatise on the art and science of applying water on fire ("Little Drops of Water: 50 Years Later," Parts 1 and 2, Fire Engineering, February and March 2000), Andrew Fredericks, the foremost expert on engine company operations

                        Andrew was a good writer and knew his subjects, but with all due respect, the hyperbole of that sentence really is a bit much and some editor was really not doing their job. I didn't agree with his opinions then, I don't now that he is no longer with us after the attacks of 9-11. Fire Engineering on this topic has done a lot a self-referring, not necessarily a bad thing but it's getting kinda old.

                        ============
                        And with apologies to everyone, the following is a work of fiction and resemblance to persons living or dead is purely coincidental:

                        1. Buy bigger hose. It's a flow rate thing!
                        2. Put a new team on the nozzle, those guys just don't know how to use it!
                        3. Threaten a side-by-side comparison.
                        4. Appointing a committee to study the nozzle.
                        5. Arranging to visit other sites to see how they use their nozzles.
                        6. Lowering the standards so that any nozzle can be included.
                        7. Appointing an NIOSH team to conclude the fireground commanders had their heads up their donkeys.
                        8. Creating a training session on the physics of the fire tetrahedron in relation to the modern fire loading of buildings with those new-fangled (only in use for the last 35 years) energy efficient windows.
                        9. Reclassifying the Fire Engine as an EMS delivery appliance.
                        10. Change the form so that it reads: "Nozzle, who needs a stinkin' nozzle? Anybody got a hangnail who needs a trip to the hospital?"
                        11. Hire outside ISO consultants to improve your rural rating.
                        12. Harness three 1-3/4" lines together on the theory three smoothbores on them must be better than one automatic on a deuce-and-a-half.
                        13. Donate the old nozzles to Helping Our Own, thereby ensuring the Captain who gets elected next year doesn't change nozzles on us. Again.
                        14. Providing additional funding so you can buy a vest for the "Nozzle Selection Sector Commander" to wear
                        15. Do a time management study to see if anyone really gives a rats rear end as long as wet stuff comes out the end.
                        16. CAF it!.
                        17. Declare that a nozzle has lower risk of hitting overhead electric wires and therefore performs in a more OSHA acceptable manner.
                        18. Form a quality focus group to find profitable to sell your old nozzles at the next firematic flea market.
                        19. Rewrite the expected performance requirements so you no longer need handlines, but handle all fires with either a 2-1/2 gallon can, or wait till the deck gun can be used in a safe and efficient manner.
                        20. Promote the people arguing over nozzles to a supervisory position. Then hope they take their wisdom, become consultants, and leave your department!
                        IACOJ Canine Officer
                        20/50

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          CaptStan...

                          I need to ask you a few questions.

                          Regarding putting the rock in the nozzle. You say with the auto you barely notice a difference in the stream, and with the smoothbore you had major deflection.

                          Are you saying that because the stream looks better in the auto it is better than the stream that is obviously partially blocked in the smoothbore?

                          Are you suggesting that the rock will have no effect on gpm flow in the auto even though it is in the path of the water? Isn't the rock in effect acting like partially closing the bale of the nozzle?

                          Why is a good looking inadequate flow better than a bad looking flow that let's you know there is blockage in the stream?

                          Just wondering...

                          By the way use what ever nozzle you choose, I'm not trying to change your mind.

                          FyredUp
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            FYREDUP.....

                            No....I should have been more specific. During the comparison we used a pressure gauge and flow meter. With the nozzle pressure at the required pressure (100 or 50 PSI depending on nozzle) the automatic still had a good pattern and the GPM difference with and without the rock was negligble. The GPM was affected, but not significantly and the stream still had good quality and reach. The results here are a result of the slide valve configuration in this nozzle.

                            In the smooth bore, the gpm dropped significantly after the rock was added and the reach/quality of the stream was drastically changed. So, by quality of the stream...I meant the reach and GPM were diminished.
                            09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                            ------------------------------
                            IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                            "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                            BMI Investigator
                            ------------------------------
                            The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              CaptStan....

                              Then the slide valve which is used as a throttling device on only one manufacturer's nozzle is the determining factor.

                              If a rock is in the screen it will reduce the flow. Irregardless of the nozzle design. If in fact what you are saying is true, you should get similar results from a smoothbore with a slide valve. Perhaps not as stunning as with the auto, but similar if the slide valve did not limit flow.

                              FyredUp
                              Crazy, but that's how it goes
                              Millions of people living as foes
                              Maybe it's not too late
                              To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I have never seen a smooth bore with a slide valve...........
                                09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                                ------------------------------
                                IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                                "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                                BMI Investigator
                                ------------------------------
                                The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                                Comment

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