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FDNY vs. NYPD

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  • E229Lt
    replied
    Me thinks this 'decision' is more about money.
    Gee, do you really think that could be it?????

    Leave a comment:


  • 1835Wayne
    replied
    "The decision to adopt a formal command structure - which
    officials had long resisted - was in part motivated by the federal
    Department of Homeland Security's decision not to give money to
    states and cities that don't have a plan in place, the Times said."

    Me thinks this 'decision' is more about money.

    Leave a comment:


  • NJFFSA16
    replied
    Battle of the Badges....continued

    Police and fire departments to adopt new protocol
    NEW YORK (AP) - The city's police and fire departments
    reportedly said they plan to establish formal guidelines for how
    emergency personnel should coordinate their response to disasters.
    Police Commissioner Ray Kelly and Fire Commissioner Nicholas
    Scoppetta said they expected to complete and sign an agreement by
    the end of the summer, The New York Times reported Saturday.
    The two departments have frequently clashed over how best to
    respond to emergencies - so much so that their disagreement has
    come to be known as the "Battle of the Badges."
    A report by consultant McKinsey & Company commissioned after the
    Sept. 11, 2001 attack found that a lack of communication between
    the two departments hindered their response.
    More recently, police and firefighters argued while trying to
    remove a suspected burglar from a chimney in Queens and at the
    scene of a search for a man underwater.
    The decision to adopt a formal command structure - which
    officials had long resisted - was in part motivated by the federal
    Department of Homeland Security's decision not to give money to
    states and cities that don't have a plan in place, the Times said.
    Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said the new system - known as
    "unified command" - would mean top police and fire officials
    would still supervise their own forces during an emergency.
    But he said senior officers from the fire and police departments
    would communicate with each other and coordinate their actions
    through the city's Office of Emergency Management.
    "We are on board," Kelly told the Times, "and we think that
    that system is the most appropriate for New York City."
    Scoppetta said the protocol would serve as a "starting point,"
    rather than a rigid plan.
    "How it is executed requires reasonable judgments being made by
    both departments," he told the Times.

    (Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    That was the lead story on NBC news tonight. The FF involved made sure to mention they (FDNY/NYPD) usually get along and work together well, most of the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • NJFFSA16
    replied
    The AP Story

    NYC fire commissioner charges police endangered his diver
    By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN
    Associated Press Writer
    NEW YORK (AP) - Tensions between elite police and fire units
    aired for the second time in two weeks as fire Commissioner
    Nicholas Scoppetta accused police of endangering a submerged fire
    rescue diver with a recklessly tossed grappling hook.
    The diver was hunting for a lost swimmer in the water below the
    Pulaski Bridge in Queens on Wednesday evening when a police scuba
    unit arrived on the scene, fire officials said.
    Firefighters from Rescue Co. 4 warned police not to toss a
    grappling hook and rope used to guide their own divers because the
    fire diver was in the water, according to a fire captain's written
    account of the incident.
    A police officer told firefighters they should shut up,
    according to the account. He tossed the hook, and the rope attached
    to it dislodged Firefighter William Murphy's facemask, briefly
    cutting his oxygen supply, fire officials said.
    Murphy readjusted his facemask but swallowed a small amount of
    water and became entangled in the rope, according to the account.
    Another firefighter disentangled him when he surfaced, the account
    said.
    Following standard procedure, firefighters handed over control
    of the operation to police divers, who eventually recovered the
    body of 54-year-old Fredrick Darling, of Long Island City, police
    said.
    If firefighters' initial accounts prove accurate, Scoppetta
    said, "This was so dangerous an incident that it could have
    resulted in serious injury to our firefighter.
    "We were there first. We were doing what we were supposed to
    do, and then the subsequent events after the police arrived is what
    gave rise to what we think was a dangerous situation."
    Police officials said they were taken aback by the fire
    department's vehement reaction and Scoppetta's highly unusual
    public criticism of the police.
    Scoppetta and police Commissioner Ray Kelly have described their
    relationship as amicable and productive, often in response to
    criticism that their departments do not sufficiently coordinate
    emergency response tactics, particularly given the threat of a
    major terrorist attack.
    Scoppetta has been a vocal supporter of an incident command
    system that uses written protocols to establish the chain of
    command at incidents ranging from pinned motorists to drownings.
    Kelly has been cool to the idea.
    The fire commissioner made an unusually forceful call Thursday
    for the departments to sign written protocols and said he expects
    them to agree soon.
    Asked about the incident at an unrelated press conference, Kelly
    said firefighters did not complain about police tactics immediately
    after the rescue. The commissioner said he was only informed of the
    incident Thursday morning and instructed the office of his chief of
    patrol to investigate it.
    "It obviously is a very serious charge," Kelly said. "There
    was no indication there was anything out of the ordinary."
    Kelly and Scoppetta downplayed inter-department tensions late
    last month after a member of the police department's elite
    Emergency Service Unit arrested a member of Rescue Co. 4 as tempers
    flared during the extraction of a burglary suspect from a Queens
    restaurant chimney.
    Mayor Michael Bloomberg called the commissioners to City Hall to
    discuss the June 27 spat, and aides described him as "deeply
    concerned" about the Wednesday incident. Kelly should relay the
    results of an internal investigation within several days, the aides
    said.
    Bloomberg spokesman Ed Skyler said both commissioners have been
    told to impress upon members of their departments that such
    behavior is "completely intolerable."

    (Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

    Leave a comment:


  • NJFFSA16
    replied
    They're at it again!

    July 10th, 2003

    NYPD and FDNY apparently got into another dispute at a water rescue...with a diver from Rescue 4 being struck by a grappling hook...from a NYPD ESU boat. The story getting coverage on the NY local media outlets...hasn't made the AP wires yet....but I would think something will be posted soon.

    The grappling hook reportedly ripped the facemask off the Rescue 4 diver...and he then became entangled in the lines. Of course....a heated discussion ensued.

    More...as details become available.

    Leave a comment:


  • hwoods
    replied
    What He Said.....

    Yeahhhhh, Artie!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Lewiston2Capt
    replied
    Originally posted by E229Lt
    Congrats Artie, That was your 1000th post!

    Leave a comment:


  • E229Lt
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    Feel free to shoot holes in this if you want to-- but I was on your side. I think you are on the defensive a little too much.
    In keeping with the WT's desire to address posts, not people, I will refrain from comment.

    Leave a comment:


  • FFMcDonald
    replied
    I never said that there should be fewer ESU Trucks floating around.
    No George - you didn't say that- I did. That is why it is under my posting.


    They will never transfer money from the PD to the FD.
    I had not realized that you were a beauracrat that worked for the City of New York - and one that made those decisions.


    And thay have SWAT Teams. They are called ESU's.
    To the casual observer- or the uninformed (READ: the General Public) SWAT - stands for Special Weapons And Tactics
    ESU - Emergency Services Unit

    Also- the NYPD's website for ESU-http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/esu.html
    provides only the following information:The Emergency Service Unit supplies specialized equipment, expertise and support to the various units within the NYPD. From auto accidents to building collapses to hostage situations, the "ESU" officers are called on when the situation requires advanced equipment and expertise.

    It doesn't say -- "Hey - these trucks are loaded for bear - and have neat toys like Heckler and Koch MP-5's..."
    In MY posting -- I acknowledged the weaponry carried the the ESU REP's On paper -- NYC is very 'nice' the PD doesn't have a SWAT team. Have you ever seen the plethora of firearms that one of those ESU trucks carries??

    I also never said that the FD should limit what types of emergencies the PD should be "allowed" to respond to.

    No -- you didn't-- I said it. Did you ever bother to read my disclaimer -- there is a reason that I have it on my postings
    -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

    George-- Calm down- and take a breath. The incident you quoted is from a actual occurance-- of that I have no doubt. It is not the first time that it has happened - and I doubt that it will be the last.
    What it is-- is a clear demonstration of poor leadership. The police officer should have known better - he 'more than likely' knew that the FD was en-route to mitigate the situation. The two should have never exchanged 'heated' words.. when the FF encountered a problem with the PD - he should have contacted his Captain.
    Likewise- the police officer should have realized that he needs to foster a working relationship with his fellow civil servants.

    Back to the original topic...
    1. The duplication of services between the cops and the FD is absurd. Cops should be cops and fire fighters should be fire fighters. If the lines cross in the heat of an emergency, that is one thing. But the cops have rescue, the FD has rescue. The cops have SCUBA, the FD has SCUBA. The cops do hazmat, the FD does hazmat. And so on.
    If you research the FDNY- and some of their documents- you will find that there is a Mayors Office directive dated May '97 that stipulates that the FDNY is in charge of all fires, explosions, structural collapses, rail crashes, aircraft crashes, Confined Space rescues, and HAZ MAT incidents.

    The same memo continues on to state: the NYPD is in charge of all civil disturbances, bomb threats, water rescues, hostage incidents, and sniper situations.

    The 1997 memo mentions nothing of auto extrication -- but it is mentioned in a memo from 1994.
    The first arriving agency initiates extrication. NYPD is in charge, because it is a traffic accident.

    I know what it is that you said. I also know what I said.

    Heck - I even agreed with you...
    George is right. It is the administration's fault.

    I said what I said because it was my opinion. My own. Never did I contradict what you said... I merely added my $0.02.

    Seems to me that their roles are clearly defined by the mayors office. It is very much a matter of enforcing policy. What good is 'official guidance' if it isn't being followed.

    Feel free to shoot holes in this if you want to-- but I was on your side. I think you are on the defensive a little too much.
    Last edited by FFMcDonald; 06-30-2003, 09:05 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • TCFire
    replied
    Probably my favorite Firefighting book is 'Braving the Flames' which recounted stories of veteran FDNY FF's over the years (including folks like Vigiano, Dunn, Ielpi). Capt. Vigiano spoke of the tension and sometimes outright animosity between the FDNY Rescue companies and the NYPD ESU units dating back to the 70's. With both being elite and highly trained/motivated groups of people (not saying that all other FDNY companies are not highly trained/motivated), how could there not be a problem when they're both on a scene with no rules of engagement? Sounded almost like the real old days in NYC where the different volunteer companies raced to a fire and literally fought over who had first water, hydrant, etc. I seem to also recall a lack of communication/unified command between the 2 agencies at an incident involving two very tall buildings in lower Manhattan a couple years ago. Lots of history here and it doesn't sound like the powers that be would have an interest in fixing it any time soon.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bones42
    replied
    You would think that with so many closings and layoffs and budget problems, the higher ups might look at some of this duplication of services and address it. Who knows, maybe it is the best way for NYC. Can pretty safely say, it would be a waste of money for my little town.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    Originally posted by FFMcDonald
    I heard this from a member of Rescue Company 1 in Manhattan, several years ago -- that there is a memo, framed in FD Headquarters in Brooklyn, from the NYPD -- to the FDNY 'requesting' the help of the FDNY in training their newly formed Emergency Services Units. I believe that it is dated from the 30's. Not sure whether or not that is true - but I know who I heard it from, and I believe him.

    On paper -- NYC is very 'nice' the PD doesn't have a SWAT team. Have you ever seen the plethora of firearms that one of those ESU trucks carries??

    I wish that FDNY were able to 'limit' the definition of what types of 'emergencies' that the NYPD were allowed to respond to. Police are police. Firefighters are firefighter.

    George is right. It is the administration's fault.

    I wonder if there were fewer of those ESU trucks floating around -- if there might be more FDNY Rescues or Squads????
    I never said that there should be fewer ESU Trucks floating around. They will never transfer money from the PD to the FD. And thay have SWAT Teams. They are called ESU's. That's like saying the FDNY deosn't have any ladder companies because they call them trucks.

    I also never said that the FD should limit what types of emergencies the PD should be "allowed" to respond to. The PD should go to everything. The problem I am citing is thay there needs to be a clearly defined set of responsibilities for each service and each type of Unit. I'm not even saying that the PD and the FD can't work together. The problem is the culture of competitiveness that has been fostered for years by the upper echelons of the services and the administration.

    Leave a comment:


  • FFMcDonald
    replied
    I heard this from a member of Rescue Company 1 in Manhattan, several years ago -- that there is a memo, framed in FD Headquarters in Brooklyn, from the NYPD -- to the FDNY 'requesting' the help of the FDNY in training their newly formed Emergency Services Units. I believe that it is dated from the 30's. Not sure whether or not that is true - but I know who I heard it from, and I believe him.

    On paper -- NYC is very 'nice' the PD doesn't have a SWAT team. Have you ever seen the plethora of firearms that one of those ESU trucks carries??

    I wish that FDNY were able to 'limit' the definition of what types of 'emergencies' that the NYPD were allowed to respond to. Police are police. Firefighters are firefighter.

    George is right. It is the administration's fault.

    I wonder if there were fewer of those ESU trucks floating around -- if there might be more FDNY Rescues or Squads????

    Leave a comment:

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