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  • #16
    Originally posted by EoneTiller
    yes sir has happened more than once. and after they would say cancel we would go back to the house and get off the trucks take our gear off and sign in , the whole nine yards. and a little while later they would call us back because its a working structure fire.
    And to think that in another thread, folks are suggesting that it would be a good thing for police to be *in charge of* firefighters. ::sigh::
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    • #17
      Eone we get the same thing from our local pd. Even at Accidents this happens. They tell the dispatch center that it is just a fender bender and to recall fire, rescue and ems then a few minutes later we are toned out for a rescue or car fire or somebody needs a ride to the ER. We have learned to just ignore thier "findings" and let the dispatch center know we are still going to the scene but at reduced speed with the exception of the first out truck.
      SAEPE EXPERTUS, SEMPER FIDELIS, FRATRES AETERNI
      "Often Tested, Always Faithful, Brothers Forever"

      Once a Marine, Always a Marine

      I got the best of both worlds- Firefighter and Marine

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      • #18
        I have worked fires and accident scenes in Alberta Canada with a lot of RCMP. Nothing but fantastic coperation there. It was a small town, 10,000 so most of us knew each other. Very liitle in egos or turf battles there. Only problem we did encounter, would be that 9-11 would only send ambulance on request of RCMP member, not fire member. Police thought it was also stupid as they were only trained in rudimentary first aid, wheras lots of fire fighters were also EMT, EMR, or Paramedic. This is kind of related to insurance and lots of private ambulance services in rural Alberta. I'm not sure how fire and Police get along in larger cities, but have not heard of major problems there. Definitely sounds like political/management turf wars and manipulation getting on the way of effective emergency response.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by cozmosis
          And to think that in another thread, folks are suggesting that it would be a good thing for police to be *in charge of* firefighters.

          oh that would go over smoothly.


          Originally posted by Trafficjockey93
          Eone we get the same thing from our local pd. Even at Accidents this happens. They tell the dispatch center that it is just a fender bender and to recall fire, rescue and ems then a few minutes later we are toned out for a rescue or car fire or somebody needs a ride to the ER. We have learned to just ignore thier "findings" and let the dispatch center know we are still going to the scene but at reduced speed with the exception of the first out truck.

          yea i know exactly what your saying.another thing is recently the patrol cars have SCBA'S in them & they have the fire extuingishers. i think if they can carry that stuff then we can have shotguns racks equipped with actual shotguns in the fire trucks.

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          • #20
            There's only one thing left to do...

            Well, I'd say it's time to have that charity softball game between the fire department and police department. I don't see this getting resolved any other way. Sanitation department will umpire. The mayor will act as softball commissioner to resolve any disputes or bench brawls.
            It's either that or a game of "touch" football. Maybe donkey basketball.
            Competing at incidents is definitely not working.
            CR
            Visit www.iacoj.com
            Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
            RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

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            • #21
              yea i know exactly what your saying.another thing is recently the patrol cars have SCBA'S in them & they have the fire extuingishers. i think if they can carry that stuff then we can have shotguns racks equipped with actual shotguns in the fire trucks.
              Shotguns are a dumb idea, but there is something you can do. Under OSHA or PEOSHA or whatever stds., the PD is held to the same standards as the FD. Do the cops have a Respiratory Protection Plan? Do they receive training? Have they been fit tested? If not, the packs should come out.

              Well, I'd say it's time to have that charity softball game between the fire department and police department. I don't see this getting resolved any other way. Sanitation department will umpire. The mayor will act as softball commissioner to resolve any disputes or bench brawls.
              I don't know about softball, but I have been to the FDNYvs. NYPD hockey game. Definitely not your friendly gathering.
              PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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              • #22
                Not for nothin, but 99% of the time we get along great with the PD. They come into quarters, to use the bathroom, eat or get out of the rain. You'd think by reading this board that theres this huge battle raging. Not true. All things considered we get along very well with the NYPD.

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                • #23
                  We also get along very will with NYPD police officers. The only thing that has to be done is to paint those white and blue ESU trucks FDNY red.
                  ALL GAVE SOME BUT SOME GAVE ALL
                  NEVER FORGET 9-11-01
                  343
                  CAPT. Frank Callahan Ladder 35 *
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                  FF. Vincent Morello Ladder 35
                  FF. Michael Roberts Ladder 35 *
                  FF. Michael Lynch Engine 40
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                  Charleston 9
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                  • #24
                    Typical of most Fire/EMS/PD disputes they are usually caused and maintained by the same people over and over. Each organization has their "special" people (can't use asteriks anymore ) and evceryone is aware of who they are. E229 is exactly right. Divide and conquer is the easiest way for the City to keep both organizations down. What is needed I think is a strong and organized union approach. Both sides need to sit down together and come up with some "working rules" that will benefit each side. Easy? No way!! But achievable if they are willing to work at it.
                    IACOJ

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                    • #25
                      Not Here......

                      To get an idea of where I'm at, coming from, been, or whatever - look at the post that I did earlier today on the "Broward Sheriff" Thread. The problems mentioned by George, and friends that I have in the NYC area, are very real, and as George said, will lead to a serious injury or death, if the situation is not resolved, Quickly and permenently. A guy named Ed Norris, from NYPD, came to Baltimore a few years ago as the new Police Commissioner. He was amazed (to quote a friend in the Baltimore FD) to learn that the cops did law enfocement and the FD did everything else. Reportedly, he wanted to establish another NYPD style operation with the ESU, HazMat, etc. but the Baltimore mayor said no. He has since moved on to the Maryland state police. Back to my area. We do EVERYTHING except law enforcement, and even a few parts of law enforcement are ours, such as the Bomb Squad and Arson Investigation areas. All "normal" FD operations are provided, HazMat, Dive, Tech Rescue, EMS, Suppression, Etc. That we get along VERY well with the PD is not an overstatement. As an example, the Rope Rescue Team recently provided several days of training for the Police SWAT Team. If needed, a FD specialty team will stand by (staged well out of the area) while a Police operation is going on, not to play Cop, but to make a rescue if necessary. Many of the County PD officers are also Volunteer Firefighters. The New York type problems will not be happening here because we both have different jobs to do, sometimes at the same incident, and most importantly, WE TALK TO EACH OTHER. Stay Safe....
                      Never use Force! Get a Bigger Hammer.
                      In memory of
                      Chief Earle W. Woods, 1912 - 1997
                      Asst. Chief John R. Woods Sr. 1937 - 2006

                      IACOJ Budget Analyst

                      I Refuse to be a Spectator. If I come to the Game, I'm Playing.

                      www.gdvfd18.com

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                      • #26
                        I heard this from a member of Rescue Company 1 in Manhattan, several years ago -- that there is a memo, framed in FD Headquarters in Brooklyn, from the NYPD -- to the FDNY 'requesting' the help of the FDNY in training their newly formed Emergency Services Units. I believe that it is dated from the 30's. Not sure whether or not that is true - but I know who I heard it from, and I believe him.

                        On paper -- NYC is very 'nice' the PD doesn't have a SWAT team. Have you ever seen the plethora of firearms that one of those ESU trucks carries??

                        I wish that FDNY were able to 'limit' the definition of what types of 'emergencies' that the NYPD were allowed to respond to. Police are police. Firefighters are firefighter.

                        George is right. It is the administration's fault.

                        I wonder if there were fewer of those ESU trucks floating around -- if there might be more FDNY Rescues or Squads????
                        Marc

                        "In Omnia Paratus"

                        Member - IACOJ
                        "Got Crust?"

                        -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by FFMcDonald
                          I heard this from a member of Rescue Company 1 in Manhattan, several years ago -- that there is a memo, framed in FD Headquarters in Brooklyn, from the NYPD -- to the FDNY 'requesting' the help of the FDNY in training their newly formed Emergency Services Units. I believe that it is dated from the 30's. Not sure whether or not that is true - but I know who I heard it from, and I believe him.

                          On paper -- NYC is very 'nice' the PD doesn't have a SWAT team. Have you ever seen the plethora of firearms that one of those ESU trucks carries??

                          I wish that FDNY were able to 'limit' the definition of what types of 'emergencies' that the NYPD were allowed to respond to. Police are police. Firefighters are firefighter.

                          George is right. It is the administration's fault.

                          I wonder if there were fewer of those ESU trucks floating around -- if there might be more FDNY Rescues or Squads????
                          I never said that there should be fewer ESU Trucks floating around. They will never transfer money from the PD to the FD. And thay have SWAT Teams. They are called ESU's. That's like saying the FDNY deosn't have any ladder companies because they call them trucks.

                          I also never said that the FD should limit what types of emergencies the PD should be "allowed" to respond to. The PD should go to everything. The problem I am citing is thay there needs to be a clearly defined set of responsibilities for each service and each type of Unit. I'm not even saying that the PD and the FD can't work together. The problem is the culture of competitiveness that has been fostered for years by the upper echelons of the services and the administration.
                          PROUD, HONORED AND HUMBLED RECIPIENT OF THE PURPLE HYDRANT AWARD - 10/2007.

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                          • #28
                            You would think that with so many closings and layoffs and budget problems, the higher ups might look at some of this duplication of services and address it. Who knows, maybe it is the best way for NYC. Can pretty safely say, it would be a waste of money for my little town.
                            "This thread is being closed as it is off-topic and not related to the fire industry." - Isn't that what the Off Duty forum was for?

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                            • #29
                              Probably my favorite Firefighting book is 'Braving the Flames' which recounted stories of veteran FDNY FF's over the years (including folks like Vigiano, Dunn, Ielpi). Capt. Vigiano spoke of the tension and sometimes outright animosity between the FDNY Rescue companies and the NYPD ESU units dating back to the 70's. With both being elite and highly trained/motivated groups of people (not saying that all other FDNY companies are not highly trained/motivated), how could there not be a problem when they're both on a scene with no rules of engagement? Sounded almost like the real old days in NYC where the different volunteer companies raced to a fire and literally fought over who had first water, hydrant, etc. I seem to also recall a lack of communication/unified command between the 2 agencies at an incident involving two very tall buildings in lower Manhattan a couple years ago. Lots of history here and it doesn't sound like the powers that be would have an interest in fixing it any time soon.
                              In Arduis Fidelis
                              Faithful in Adversity

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                              • #30
                                I never said that there should be fewer ESU Trucks floating around.
                                No George - you didn't say that- I did. That is why it is under my posting.


                                They will never transfer money from the PD to the FD.
                                I had not realized that you were a beauracrat that worked for the City of New York - and one that made those decisions.


                                And thay have SWAT Teams. They are called ESU's.
                                To the casual observer- or the uninformed (READ: the General Public) SWAT - stands for Special Weapons And Tactics
                                ESU - Emergency Services Unit

                                Also- the NYPD's website for ESU-http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/esu.html
                                provides only the following information:The Emergency Service Unit supplies specialized equipment, expertise and support to the various units within the NYPD. From auto accidents to building collapses to hostage situations, the "ESU" officers are called on when the situation requires advanced equipment and expertise.

                                It doesn't say -- "Hey - these trucks are loaded for bear - and have neat toys like Heckler and Koch MP-5's..."
                                In MY posting -- I acknowledged the weaponry carried the the ESU REP's On paper -- NYC is very 'nice' the PD doesn't have a SWAT team. Have you ever seen the plethora of firearms that one of those ESU trucks carries??

                                I also never said that the FD should limit what types of emergencies the PD should be "allowed" to respond to.

                                No -- you didn't-- I said it. Did you ever bother to read my disclaimer -- there is a reason that I have it on my postings
                                -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

                                George-- Calm down- and take a breath. The incident you quoted is from a actual occurance-- of that I have no doubt. It is not the first time that it has happened - and I doubt that it will be the last.
                                What it is-- is a clear demonstration of poor leadership. The police officer should have known better - he 'more than likely' knew that the FD was en-route to mitigate the situation. The two should have never exchanged 'heated' words.. when the FF encountered a problem with the PD - he should have contacted his Captain.
                                Likewise- the police officer should have realized that he needs to foster a working relationship with his fellow civil servants.

                                Back to the original topic...
                                1. The duplication of services between the cops and the FD is absurd. Cops should be cops and fire fighters should be fire fighters. If the lines cross in the heat of an emergency, that is one thing. But the cops have rescue, the FD has rescue. The cops have SCUBA, the FD has SCUBA. The cops do hazmat, the FD does hazmat. And so on.
                                If you research the FDNY- and some of their documents- you will find that there is a Mayors Office directive dated May '97 that stipulates that the FDNY is in charge of all fires, explosions, structural collapses, rail crashes, aircraft crashes, Confined Space rescues, and HAZ MAT incidents.

                                The same memo continues on to state: the NYPD is in charge of all civil disturbances, bomb threats, water rescues, hostage incidents, and sniper situations.

                                The 1997 memo mentions nothing of auto extrication -- but it is mentioned in a memo from 1994.
                                The first arriving agency initiates extrication. NYPD is in charge, because it is a traffic accident.

                                I know what it is that you said. I also know what I said.

                                Heck - I even agreed with you...
                                George is right. It is the administration's fault.

                                I said what I said because it was my opinion. My own. Never did I contradict what you said... I merely added my $0.02.

                                Seems to me that their roles are clearly defined by the mayors office. It is very much a matter of enforcing policy. What good is 'official guidance' if it isn't being followed.

                                Feel free to shoot holes in this if you want to-- but I was on your side. I think you are on the defensive a little too much.
                                Last edited by FFMcDonald; 06-30-2003, 09:05 AM.
                                Marc

                                "In Omnia Paratus"

                                Member - IACOJ
                                "Got Crust?"

                                -- The opinions presented here are my own; and are not those of any organization that I belong to, or work for.

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