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When is a Terrorist not a Terrorist?

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  • CJMinick390
    replied
    Lt,you've hit the crux of the counter terrorism problem in this country. We are a free society and we value that very highly. At the same time, our love of individual freedoms makes the gathering of and acting upon intelligence problematic at best.

    You are quite right. If the airliners involved in the 911 attacks had been shot down before they hit their targets, the cries of protest would have brought down the sitting government. Law enforcement has a very hard time being pro-active in America. That is why an individual citizen in this country must be responsible for his own security by whatever means he chooses to use that does not unduly endanger his fellow citizen. In many cases, law enforcement cannot truly protect, they can only react. It's the price we pay for the life we choose for ourselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • E229Lt
    replied
    Yeah....I'd say he was a terrorist.
    Don't get me wrong. Of course he's a terrorist. The problem lies with the public not being able to accept averting a disaster as progress.

    I've asked this question before:

    If the US military, law enforcement, FBI, CIA, et. al. had gotten last minute intel on 9-11-01 of the plot to highjack four planes and fly them into various high profile facilities. If all that info was put together after the planes were in the air, fighters were scrambled, the planes intercepted, attempts to force them to land failed. A agonizing decision was made and the four planes were shot down.

    The death toll would be 266 and the public outcry would remove every single person from office who had a part in the decision.

    The reason? Nobody can ever know the amount of lives saved.

    Same goes for the judicial system. Faris faces a Max. 20 years. What if he succeeded? Death? Is he being treated like a terrorist?

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    So what has been sad by some replies, each time someone finds an unattended pocketbook we should start bomb and arson, and evacuating the area? (How often does this happen, Go to any large department store or building and ask if they have a lost and found.) This is part of the problem we are receiving calls for found pocketbooks.
    Of course not. But there is also no reason to call the FD right away either. In a courthouse, for example, during calendar call, lawyers are meeting in every nook and cranny of the place. Briefcases are left unattended all the time. If it is unattended for a short period of time, no big deal. After awhile the Sheriff's Office will start asking around. If no one claims it, we move to the next level.

    Unfortunately, in this day and age, if a clerk in a department store sees a package, or a briefcase, or a pocketbook and feels that it is suspicious, than it should be treated as suspicious. I think you will find that store management will make some effort to find the owner, as an evacuated store equals th loss of revenue.

    Malls are a particularly soft target. Security usually stinks and accessis, by design, unfettered. How many explosive devices placed in malls across this country do you suppose it would take to make people stop going to shopping malls? That would have a significant impact on our economy. So a few nuisance calls to the mall to standby for an unattended package seems to me to be a small price to pay for an increase in public security.

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  • NJFFSA16
    replied
    Originally posted by E229Lt
    The other day a plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge was thwarted, a terrorist was put in custody...or was he...nothing happened, right? Is he a terrorist? Was there a plot?
    Faris, of Columbus, is cooperating in the investigation of
    al-Qaida, federal authorities said Thursday.
    Faris pleaded guilty May 1 to providing material support to
    terrorists and conspiracy to provide support, according to
    documents unsealed Thursday in U.S. District Court in Alexandria,
    Va.
    Faris, who is represented by a lawyer and said in the documents
    he was not coerced to plead, could face 20 years in prison and up
    to $500,000 in fines. Sentencing was set for Aug. 1.

    Yeah....I'd say he was a terrorist.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain12
    replied
    I want to thank everybody for reading and replying to my post. The good as well as the bad comments, a lot of your comments were cover in the very last part of the post, were I said to follow set guidelines set forth by FEMA/FBI/Homeland security.

    So what has been sad by some replies, each time someone finds an unattended pocketbook we should start bomb and arson, and evacuating the area? (How often does this happen, Go to any large department store or building and ask if they have a lost and found.) This is part of the problem we are receiving calls for found pocketbooks.

    Again thanks for all the replies, this is how we all learn, and teach others all over the world. Please add any other input you may have.

    Mark

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    I must fully agree with ya George! (Aint that a scary scenario?)
    Twice in one week?

    Leave a comment:


  • E229Lt
    replied
    When is a terrorist not a terrorist?
    When his plans are foiled and not carried out.> Good intel.> An arrest. > Nothing happens!!!!

    John Q. Public complains about all the security, "it's not needed...nothing has happened in two years..."

    The other day a plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge was thwarted, a terrorist was put in custody...or was he...nothing happened, right? Is he a terrorist? Was there a plot?

    Most of the idiots in this great nation believe he is not a terrorist because nothing happened. (Not to say most in this nation are idiots, just pointing out what the idiots think)

    Another troubling trend:

    This is a police job. A package becomes a bomb when someone thinks it is a bomb. It is then dealt with solely by trained hazardous device technicians. The ONLY thing the FD should do at this point is to respond to the staging area and to prepare to respond if the device explodes.

    I must fully agree with ya George! (Aint that a scary scenario?)



    Or, if you’re from the old school, do we send in THE PROBIES and have them open the suit case first?
    Mark, I never went to this school, although my school was old, I never heard of such an attitude. Don't get me wrong, I agree with 99% of your post, but this jumped off the screen at me.

    Leave a comment:


  • RalphSafety
    replied
    This is an excellent post, because we have to admit, there will be further incidents in North America. They don't have to be from the Middle East, remember Timothy McVeigh, and it might not be terrorism, most bombings stem from more traditional motives; revenge, organized crime, vandalism.

    The important thing to remember about many terrorist groups is that they hate Americans, all Americans. It doesn't have to be a high value target like the Pentagon or Fort Knox, a soft target like a mall, an apartment building, a movie theatre, or the high school football stadium on Friday night will do just fine, as long as they can kill some Americans and scare the rest. As security is stepped up in the big cities, they might cast their eyes on the small towns. Some might say that is unlikely, but I personally don't think it is. A few small attacks, spread across the country, would have a devastating impact on people, because they would realize that no one is safe.

    As several others have pointed out, suspicious packages should be considered a bomb until proven otherwise, and they should be dealt with by trained bomb techs, not the average firefighter or police officer.

    Fire Department involvement should be limited to; assisting in setting up a perimeter around the site, assisting with the evacuation of people from the danger zone, standing by in case things go bad. There also needs to be an awareness that secondary devices might be nearby, specifically targeting first responders, such as in the abortion clinic bombing near Atlanta in 1997, and as happened in Northern Ireland many times.

    There needs to be liason between Police, Fire and EMS, to clearly establish who will do what, and also what your agency will not do. If there is a bomb threat, without a suspicious device found yet, the Police usually request the building occupant/owner to conduct a search, since they will not be familiar with the building and with what belongs there and what doesn't.

    Given the times we live in, Fire Departments ought to have SOPs for responding to such incidents and specifically train for such incidents, and they would probably benefit from meeting with the local bomb squad, and ensuring they are all on the same page.

    Leave a comment:


  • dfdNo9
    replied
    No one anwsered the question.

    When is a terrorist not a terrorist?

    When he's dead.........

    If you don't know don't touch.........

    K.I.S.S.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ohiovolffemtp
    replied
    Definitely A Call For The Bomb Techs - Whether They are FD or PD

    A suspicious object/device is definitely a call for a bomb tech - not for the average firefighter/police officer/paramedic.

    The only clarification I'd like to make is that in different areas, different organizations have bomb techs. In southwest Ohio, the primary unit is from the Cincinnati fire department. They always staff at least 2 bomb techs who have completed the federal training at the Redstone arsenal. They are the best equipped team in the area. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base has a team that will respond for any suspected military ordnance. Several other local agencies: 2 county sheriffs depts and 1 suburban FD also have 1 or a few bomb techs with varying levels of equipment.

    Our job as initial responders is hazard detection, scene isolation, and contact of appropriate special resources. We need to identify those resources ahead of time.

    Leave a comment:


  • GeorgeWendtCFI
    replied
    One nice sunny morning, Tones go out. Station 12, Chief 12, Battalion 21, Engine 12, Squirt 12, Engine 36, Engine 32, Rescue12, Hazmat 32, as well as, the police have been dispatched. There’s been a report of a suspicious suit case in a Condo lobby area. Before 911, WE had some of these calls, and 25 years ago, WE never received any of these types of calls and if WE did, WE just walked up and opened the suit case to look for a name tag and returned it to the rightful owner. Wow! Things have changed since 1979. Now in the wake of 911, WE are all on guard to our surroundings. WE follow all of our Departments SOP’s and or The FBI’s set guidelines regarding these types of calls.

    WE now have to try to find out, if this is a real explosive device, or just another absent minded little old lady that forgot her suit case. Many things come into play. Is this building a High terrorist target Government building, sports complex, a building with political ties to the government, or a soft target, and has the building received any bomb threats lately, or any reported disputes between husbands and wives, etc?

    WE have to use the tools we have on hand, to make a hard judgment call, otherwise, each Engine Company will need its own bomb squad.
    I think you guys are taking this too literally! I interpret that as "we" being the emergency services
    Nice try.

    Leave a comment:


  • BLACKSHEEP1
    replied
    Yep, that's the cop's job. At least around here, they have the resources to handle this situation. They also have a bigger budget. We've responded on some of these before, identified the area in question, evacuated the area and let pd handle it, and some of them can be quite entertaining.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ratchet
    replied
    I have to admit, I really enjoy reading posts like this. Not being on with a department yet leaves me with a million and one questions about the fire service. Reading information like this from all angles provides a lot of insight, and will no doubt make me a better firefighter/paramedic when the time comes. Thanks...

    Leave a comment:


  • CaptainGonzo
    replied
    Posted by George Wendt, CFI
    THIS IS NOT YOUR JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is a police job. A package becomes a bomb when someone thinks it is a bomb. It is then dealt with solely by trained hazardous device technicians. The ONLY thing the FD should do at this point is to respond to the staging area and to prepare to respond if the device explodes.

    Many of the other points in this post are sound, such as training and pre-planning. But a possible hazardous device should never, ever, ever, be touched by anyone not equipped and trained as a hazardous device technician..EVER!


    I agree with George on this one!

    While we have to nbe miore aware of waht is going on post 9/11, we as firefighters do not have the training to deal with hazardous devices! The closest we get is a course in performing blasting details, where the people we are monitoring are licensed and have the proper permits. The last time I looked, terrorists do not have licenses for explosives not get the proper permits!

    Our SOP when it comes to bomb scares is to roll a full response, but stage at least 1000 feet way and let the PD and the Massachusetts State Police Hazardous Devices squad deal with the situation! The Hazardous Devices unit of the MSP works under the direction of the State Fire Marshal, and they are based at the Mass Fire Academy in Stow. They have explosive detection dogs and the training in detecting, handling and the disposal of hazardous devices.

    If the device goes

    "BOOM!"

    then it becomes a fire incident!

    Just my 3 cents worth, Captain have to pay a little more!
    Last edited by CaptainGonzo; 06-22-2003, 07:59 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ltmdepas3280
    replied
    Originally posted by lutan1


    I think you guys are taking this too literally! I interpret that as "we" being the emergency services....

    Great post, Captain!
    DITTO!

    Leave a comment:

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