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The Pressure Governor Broke…Now What???

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  • #16
    Although It might take a little more than 60 seconds...You could use your second or third or whatever Engine Co. that has secured its own water supply to augment the original Engine via relay pumping. Thus the POS Engine that craped out would just then be one large manifold.

    All of this takes the right amount of men in the right place at the right time...and for most Depts 3 and 4 man rigs wouldn't be able to pull this off in the time frame presented.

    I've also used pumps that had the so called "manual back-up" relief valve and throttle...it however was connected to the same electronics as the digital govenor relay. There for if the electronics craped out(the reason for having a backup) you would be SOL.

    How come NFPA doesn't have standards against this type of spec???? How come Depts. spec this???

    FTM-PTB

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    • #17
      Spec'ing a manual override/throttle/relief valve could just save your butt in this case. Many departments are spec'ing these already.


      Figure the standard department runs two engines and a ladder on the first alarm. One attack engine, supplying handlines (craps the bed) and one engine at the hydrant. Where does your "relay engine" come in? Is that on the second alarm from your neighbors 10 miles away? Hmmm, sounds like a good argument for a QUINT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

      What's that? Not worth the extra money? Never use it? How about if it saved a firefighter's LIFE? ONCE? Perhaps this is just one example of why so many departments use the "just in case" phrase when they decide to put pumps on their aerials.

      Nobody needs to comment on this post. I just needed to strike while the iron was hot.

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      • #18
        ...and everything was going along so nicely.....

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        • #19
          Overriding a ECM

          Well I'll comment.Just how exactly do you think you're going to install an override?If your problem is the ECM going to idle there is no "override"unless you want to install another complete wiring harness and ECM(Engine control module).There is no way to do this unless perhaps you could tap into the field service mode which would give you a fixed idle of say 1000-1100 rpm.When the module throws a head fit you have NO throttle control,nix nada,zippo!I know of no way currently available to overcome this problem.If the problem is the relief valve/govenor yeah maybe,if it's the module it ain't gonna happen.T.C.

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          • #20
            Assuming for the moment that the pressure governor went south and it wasn't the ECM/throttle body, could you hit the high idle switch?

            Granted high idle switches are supposed to be "locked out" when the pump is engaged, but when electronics get screwed up all bets are off. (And is the lockout still effective when the pump is manually engaged?)

            It wouldn't be pretty, but you might get enough flow for the hose teams to bail out.
            ullrichk
            a.k.a.
            perfesser

            a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

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            • #21
              Originally posted by HFDCLanger
              Spec'ing a manual override/throttle/relief valve could just save your butt in this case. Many departments are spec'ing these already.


              Figure the standard department runs two engines and a ladder on the first alarm. One attack engine, supplying handlines (craps the bed) and one engine at the hydrant. Where does your "relay engine" come in? Is that on the second alarm from your neighbors 10 miles away? Hmmm, sounds like a good argument for a QUINT. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

              What's that? Not worth the extra money? Never use it? How about if it saved a firefighter's LIFE? ONCE? Perhaps this is just one example of why so many departments use the "just in case" phrase when they decide to put pumps on their aerials.

              Nobody needs to comment on this post. I just needed to strike while the iron was hot.
              Does Hubba Hubba Hubbardston have Quint?
              ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
              Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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              • #22
                Thanks for all these great posts and discussions, Lt. It's so nice to be learning things, rather than reading about dashlights, etc.
                God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
                Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
                Click this to search FH Forums!

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                • #23
                  Here's one.... may take a second to accomplish...but...

                  Step 1..order evacuation....NOW

                  Step 2..have another pumper hook to your other intake and pump through you with their tank water. in the mean time have them hook to the hydrant ...take the hydrant water and continue to "pump through" your pumper...

                  Yes..I hate the electronic throttle.... Provides no escape in this kind of emergency. Also...anyone ever had the problem with the apparatus wanting to "jump" as it goes down the road if you do not keep steady pressure on the pedal? (I know this is another subject).. Only way to fix it while driving is to let off accelerator or.....increase speed.
                  09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                  ------------------------------
                  IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                  "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                  BMI Investigator
                  ------------------------------
                  The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Ok, the hydrants around here flow about 70 psi, so, if the guys inside had smooth bores they might still be ok, they could also go to a smaller tip. The automatic guys may or may not have a problem because the auto will try to compensate for low pressure, and will, to a point, below, that point they're history. The 100 psi fog guys are in trouble, but they might buy some time by changing the gpm ring on the nozzle to the lowest setting and maybe get some form of stream back, the 75 psi fog guys are in the best shape for the fog tips because they operate off of a lower pressure and they can spin the gpm ring down as well. Still, none of this will work if the pressure drops below about 40psi. We have an engine that used to pull this stuff all of the time, it was a Pierce, we named it Christine after the haunted car. Still in service and hasn't acted up in awhile, but you're right, we had an early electric throttle and you could step on the gas pedal. The new ones, no way will that help you.
                    Good question though.

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                    • #25
                      //Also...anyone ever had the problem with the apparatus wanting to "jump" as it goes down the road if you do not keep steady pressure on the pedal?//

                      Cap.. try pressing your boot up against the engine cover, it seems to keep your foot from bouncing everytime you hit a bump, works fairly well for us.

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                      • #26
                        Halligan....tried that..works some times. Has to be a design flaw in that circuit and seems to be a consistent problem for more than one manufacturer...
                        09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                        ------------------------------
                        IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                        "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                        BMI Investigator
                        ------------------------------
                        The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The more I read on this post the more I like our 30+ year old trucks. These eloctronics are scary.

                          stay safe
                          Stay Safe ~ The Dragon Still Bites!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I just thought it might be nice to have a system that would work for 99% of your “governor malfunctions”.

                            After all, the governor is the least tested system on the fire truck and has the worst track record. The electronic engine is installed in the hundreds of thousands of heavy trucks world-wide, while the engine governor is only in a few thousand fire apparatus, at best.

                            “Just how exactly do you think you're going to install an override?”

                            Simple: The override switch cuts power to the governor and powers the hand throttle. Leave the relief valve pre-set 20psi above your standard handline pressure. The governor craps the bed, throw the override switch, and you’re back in business.

                            Seeing as how you just drove the truck to the fire, I don’t think that it’s a problem with the electronic engine controls themselves. After all, when was the last time you had the throttle kick out on you while you were driving down the road? Now compare this to the number of times it has happened AFTER you put the pump into gear. Yeah, sounds like it will most likely be a governor problem to me.

                            Seems quite logical to me. Much more likely to work than having somebody jump in the cab and step on the gas (which will probably not work if the override didn’t work anyway, and would not work with most newer apparatus when in pump gear), doesn’t require the extra person, and gives much more control and sanity to the operation.

                            Makes much more sense that conducting some ridiculous relay operation with a pump that most departments won’t have until 20 minutes after the guys are already toast.

                            This having been said, it’s hard to believe that anyone would buy a fire truck today without one.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Overriding a ECM

                              If it's the electronics on the engine, I don't think you have too many options. The common problems I have heard about typically deal with a bad pressure sensor on the governor, or a faulty circuit board.

                              If the pressure sensor (or cable) goes bad, the truck can still be operated in "RPM" mode, though you will have to constantly monitor and adjust pressure as you would on a conventional pump. We have had this happen on one of our trucks.

                              If the circuit board goes bad, you might be able to manually operate the truck in "RPM" mode. Or you might not. It depends on what has failed. Both of these problems can be replaced in the field by maintenance personnel.

                              I have been told that you can not incorporate a mechanical linkage throttle (the old knobs) with a newer electronic engine. When you see throttle knobs on newer trucks, they are typically electronic versions of the old mechanical throttle.

                              Could you have a backup electromechanical throttle installed that you could switch to, along with a manual relief valve? Yup, there are lots of these floating around. Annaville's beasts have such a setup I believe (hopefully someone in the know can chime in, and correct me if I'm wrong). All this is assuming a problem in the electronic governor or sensor, and NOT in the engine itself. IF the truck is experiencing voltage issues, it is a very real possiblity that the engine WILL shut down, and no type of throttle/governor/computer can fix this. The computer (and consequently the engine) will not function without regulated voltage in a narrow operating range.

                              Since the truck IS running at idle in the example given, it doesn't sound like a voltage issue. But while you're trying to get water to the crew from a secondary source, it couldn't hurt to shut down all ancillary electrical loads, disengage the pump, shut down the truck, then restart the truck and re-engage pump. Again, I'd tend to think that if it was a voltage isssue the engine itself would quit, not just the governor. Sooo, perhaps this wouldn't accomplish a thing.

                              As far as using the accelerator pedal to "throttle" the pump... if the pump is engaged, an interlock should disable the cab accelerator. This is a required feature to conform with standards. If this didn't happen, the risk of a truck suddenly driving off is increased. An interesting question to me, is how is the interlock configured. Is it on the Road-Pump valve, or is it a sensor located somewhere else that relies on the pump actually becoming engaged? Someone above hinted that perhaps you could manually engage the pump, then use some type of throttle control (accelerator, high idle, cruise control, etc). Sounded like a creative solution to me.
                              Last edited by Resq14; 06-18-2003, 02:19 PM.
                              God Bless America!Remember all have given some, but some have given all.
                              Google Is Your Friend™Helpful forum tip - a "must see" if you're new here
                              Click this to search FH Forums!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                We had Christine try to go into pump and road at the same time, this was when we were driving down the road at 40 mph.
                                I firmly believe that the last real firetrucks were MACK CF600's there has never been a better truck. They were simple, they worked and we still have 2 on our department that were built in 1974, almost 30 years ago!!, but it's hard to get parts for them these days. I really don't see anything we have today being around 30 years from now.

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