Apartment / Highrise attack lines.

[sbfire]

Hello Brothers and Sisters! We have been doing alot of research on what to use for an interior attack line for apartment or highrise fires and can't come to an agreement. We have limited manpower eg. two engines and a truck responding would give us approx 8-10 firefighters initially. I would really appreciate any input from fellow firefighters all over the map keeping in mind that we do have limited manpower! Thanks in advance for your input!

Your Canadian Neighbor...

[mcaldwell]

Scroll down the page a ways and you will see a thread entitled "why the 1 3/4 inch with fog nozzle for standpipes"? They are "discussing" (that's being polite) this very topic right now.

FYI, We use 1 3/4 with fog for our 5 and 6 storey condo/hotel structures (sprinklered). We only have one small and old 840 gpm truck, and can't push enough water to reliably run a 2 1/2 plus several spinkler heads 50+ feet up anyway. But the consensus seems to lean towards the big lines in the big or unsprinklered buildings.

[sbfire]

Mcaldwell, thanks alot for your reply! I'll go check it out right now.

[FyredUp]

sbfire....

At a minimum you should be using a 15/16 smooth bore on your 1 3/4 inch hose. 182 gpm at 50 psi at the nozzle.

A better choice would be 2 inch with either a 1 inch smooth bore tip flowing 209 at 50 psi at the nozzle or with a 1 1/8 inch smoothbore flowing 265 at 50 psi at the nozzle.

The best choice may be 2 1/2 inch with a 1 1/8 inch nozzle.

A fog nozzle, particularly a 100 psi fog nozzle, and even more particularly an automatic nozzle should NOT be used for a standpipe nozzle. With friction loss in the smaller hose, and the posibility of pressure reducing devices on the standpipe you will not get enough pressure to get a 100 psi fog nozzle to operate correctly.

There have been many different topics posted here about this topic and many, many firefighters with more high rise experience than I have will tell you that their choice is the 2 1/2 inch line with a 1 1/8 inch tip. They speak from actual real life multiple high rise fire experiences and not from theory or conjecture.


mcaldwell....

840 Imperial gpm's is around 1000 gpm US. With an average sprinkler head flowing 25-30 gpm you would have to have 40 sprinkler heads flowing to deplete your engine. I find it hard to believe that you can't supply a 2 1/2 inch handline in addition to supporting the sprinkler system. In fact the reduced friction loss in the 2 1/2 inch line will mean you can actually feed more water to the nozzle with less engine pressure.

Take care and stay safe,

FyredUp

[mstclair190]

The 2-1/2" line is definately a good choice if you have the manpower for it. I personally like the idea of using 2" line with a low pressure nozzle (either smooth bore or a low pressure fog type depending on your preference) in the limited manpower situation. The lines are more manuverable than the bigger lines with fewer people. There's also less friction loss than 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" which in turn could allow you to get a bigger flow if necessary by increasing the pressure some.

[ADSNWFLD]

Don't blame poor manning for not using a 2.5" If you practice with it two guys can handle a 2.5". Because of all the delays mentioned in other posts the 2.5" is the way to go. The fire will grow and become a problem prior to you getting up there.

[FFFRED]

Wow bro, 8-10 men for a high rise fire. How long until more personel could arrive? You could leave 1 man on the pump downstairs. Since you mention high-Rise. Other than an inital size-up on the outside by someone from the Truck there should be no need for the Truck Members to be outside.
Here is a suggestion:
Use 2 1/2 Hose with a smoothbore 1 1/8th tip. You'll be surprised on how easy it is to move compared to even a 1 3/4 w/Fog tip. Plus additional gpm (read:safety factor) Plus since you don't have the manpower for an additional line this maximizes the efficency of one nozzle team.

1-Pump Operator
1-Officer in command of Handline.
2-Nozzle man and Backup man
1-Operates Standpipe
1-Feeds Hose to Nozzle Team


FE Team (searches for fire and assists Hoseline advance.)
1-Irons man- Carries Irons and Hydra Ram
1-Can man-Carries Can & 6 ft hook
+Possible additional men
1-Carries Maul and Halligan searches floor and Stairwell above initally.
1-Assist Engine with Stretch, provide relief when necessary.

This is just a suggestion you could use for brainstorming a solution. I hope you never have to face a high-rise fire with such abysmal staffing.

Subscribe to www.firenuggets.com and learn plenty about High Rise Fires as well as other operations.

Stay safe

FTM-PTB

[FyredUp]

It always amazes me that low manpower is an excuse for not pulling a 2 1/2 inch line. Because there always seems to be enough guys to pull 2 or 3 - 1 3/4 inch lines at the same fire. The efficiency is maximized if you instead use the crews that man 2 of those 1 3/4 inch lines to pull the 2 1/2 and the other to pull an 1 3/4 line to check for extension.

Minimal staffing may be a much better reason to pull the big line, because you may only get one shot before you are out on the street building a parking lot. Your odds of success increase with more gpm's.

FyredUp