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  • #16
    Hey newguy, just a thought... maybe this was a test, and only a test, at no time would you have been held responsible.

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    • #17
      He is the chief and probrably for good reason. He was maximizing his resources and he knew the training level of his men-therefore knew that you were capable of doing it. And a rule of thumb-unless something puts you in danger-work now grieve later. If you dont feel comfortable doing what you did-then talk to him but the bottom line is you got it done and your chief either made a good decision or got lucky. So just tell the "operators" that you were following orders.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by MikeF25
        I am working the door, my captain tells me to back out and to cut the hinge, the firefighter from the other department is telling me to spread it (which I agreed with), who do you listen to?
        As taboo as it is... the Captain isn't always right!

        If I'm the one operating the tool, I'm going to cut it my way. There is more then one way to do everything, and I'll take thier advice & suggestions, but then accomplish the task in the most effective, patient oriented manner possible.

        *Mark
        FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH

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        • #19
          Ok, well I backed out and let the next guy in with the cutters. The door was ripping pretty good, but I could have popped it. The guy with the cutters wasn't as expperianced as me and he got part of the door and it basically bent the metal back to how it was before I started. I tried to spread it again and my tips were a little too thick to get a good bite, and being the other department had a little smaller tool they got in and popped the door.

          Afterwards I asked my chief how I should have handled it. His reply was listen to the guy at the door, he is closer and can see what is going on better.

          I just wonder if his answer would be the same if he was the one telling me to back out and I didn't.
          Proud to be IACOJ Illinois Chapter--Deemed "Crustworthy" Jan, 2003

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          • #20
            If a Captain tells you to do something, you'd best do it just like they said. He/she may know something you don't know. Freelancing can get you hurt and, perhaps, fired.
            Member IACOJ

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            • #21
              When responding to a call, the officer of the truck assigns the roles of attack and hydrant to the firefighters before we leave the hall. The officer makes darn sure that we are all comfortable with our positions. On scene, if we're assigned a task that we aren't sure about, the officer will make sure that someone helps us. That way, we learn how to do the job properly and safely, and the officer can be assured that it will get done. Peace of mind, you know?

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              • #22
                Call me crazy, but.....

                On scene, if we're assigned a task that we aren't sure about, the officer will make sure that someone helps us. That way, we learn how to do the job properly and safely, and the officer can be assured that it will get done. Peace of mind, you know?
                Call me crazy, but I would want to work on "function and form" during training exercises and NOT at the fireground or the scene of an MVA. Since we work in an environment where seconds do count, on-the-job training should be limited to a bare necessity. Training is "show time", but response is "go time". Once the incident has been mitigated, training can resume in the de-briefing.
                Sorry, but for me, when I tell someone to do something at a scene, they'd better know how to do it, because they have been trained to do it. Officers are there as an extension of the Incident Command. And they are assuring that it is GETTING DONE.
                Peace of mind? Yeah. Mine.
                CR
                Visit www.iacoj.com
                Remember Bradley Golden (9/25/01)
                RIP HOF Robert J. Compton(ENG6511)

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                • #23
                  not crazy...well...not THAT crazy

                  That's a good point, ChiefReason. I guess what I mean is that if someone tells you to go and shut off a pump or whatever, and you don't know what to do, you should ask for help. Everybody is at different training levels and experience levels on our deparment, so people are constantly learning new skills through training and on scene. I don't know other departments do things, so I'm sure there's many, many different ways that things get done. And I'm sure they all work just as well.

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                  • #24
                    A general comment on questioning authority

                    Some excellent points have already been made.

                    Under most circumstances I would agree that you should always follow orders on the fireground.

                    A good discussion of when and how to refuse an order (for cause) was outlined in a series of articles in Firehouse Magazine. Do a search for "crew resource management" on this site and you'll find them.

                    The reader's digest of the Cliff's Notes version of the article is that the aviation industry discovered that pilots (Incident Commanders) are not infallible, and that crew members had damn well better speak up if something's amiss, irrespective of rank.

                    It was a well-written series and is definitely worth reading.
                    ullrichk
                    a.k.a.
                    perfesser

                    a ship in a harbor is safe. . . but that's not what ships are for

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