"ELF, no sprawl"

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Ratchet, just because a group "publicly admits" a criminal act, that does not provide proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Law enforcement must still arrest and charge actual people for the crimes. It is not right to malign the criminal justice system because they have not shut down an organized, clandestine, terrorist group.

[Ratchet]

George, I understand and respect what you're saying, but I'm sure that there must be something that can be done. If a person walks into a police station and says that they murdered someone, they'd lock them up, and put them on trial. Admitting the same at the trial would either get you a one-way ticket to death-row, or a very long prison term. Unfortunately, I guess our judicial system has their hands tied in situations like this due to not having any proof other than an admission of guilt. But if they just sit by and say they can't do anything, the problem only gets worse.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

George, I understand and respect what you're saying, but I'm sure that there must be something that can be done.

What? If you identify a problem, come forward with a solution.

If a person walks into a police station and says that they murdered someone, they'd lock them up, and put them on trial.

Of course they would, because that person did not make his "confession" anonymously on an internet web site.

[NJFFSA16]

Originally posted by Quigger
I never knew of these groups before until now.

Originally posted by ratchet
I'm in complete awe. I had never heard of this group until now.

Originally posted by Stayback500Feet
I was unaware of just how active they have been in Northwestern PA

And...those are just 3 reasons WHY I post these fire related articles. I will continue to follow the stories re: ELF, and keep y'all posted.

Ed

[Ratchet]

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI


What? If you identify a problem, come forward with a solution.

I think everyone in here sees this group as a problem. The police, FBI, CIA, etc. all have their ways of "baiting" people like this. If this group has been a problem for a while now, I guess I'm just surprised that they haven't been caught.

Originally posted by GeorgeWendtCFI

Of course they would, because that person did not make his "confession" anonymously on an internet web site.

Anonymously? What about the owner of the website? Start with him/her. Make an example of one of them, and try to get more.

Thanks again NJFFSA16.

[NJFFSA16]

More

WASHINGTON TOWNSHIP, Michigan (AP) - Authorities were
investigating whether members of a radical environmental group were
responsible for fires that destroyed two luxury homes under
construction.
The nearly completed homes, which had a combined value of about
$700,000, were destroyed in this community about 25 miles (40
kilometers) north of Detroit. Graffiti reading "Elf" and "stop
sprawl" was spraypainted on nearby construction equipment.
Federal and state officials said they were investigating whether
the Earth Liberation Front was involved. The FBI considers ELF one
of the nation's most prolific domestic eco-terrorist organizations,
saying it has carried out hundreds of attacks since 1996.
An anonymous spokesperson for ELF, contacted via e-mail, said
the group had heard no claims of responsibility from its members
for the Macomb County fires.
The spraypainting found Wednesday was similar to that found in
an area near Ann Arbor where two homes under construction were
burned in March. An April 1 notice on the ELF Web site indicated
its activists were involved.
Suburban sprawl and land use have become controversial issues in
Michigan in recent years, especially in Macomb County, where
once-rural communities have seen their populations boom.

(Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[NJFFSA16]

DETROIT (AP) - Fires at luxury houses under construction on the
leading edges of Detroit's expanding suburbs probably were set by a
radical environmental group opposed to sprawl, the FBI said
Wednesday.
Building industry and law enforcement officials urged the public
to report suspicious activity and said they were offering rewards
totaling $20,000 for information leading to the arrest of those
responsible.
Fires on March 21 destroyed two homes being built in Washtenaw
County's Superior Township, west of Detroit. Upon completion, they
would have been valued at $500,000 each.
On June 4, two nearly completed houses in Macomb County's
Washington Township, north of Detroit, were set afire. They had a
combined value of about $700,000.
The Superior Township fires have been ruled arsons, said Special
Agent Gregory Holley, head of the Detroit office of the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The Washington Township
fires remain under investigation but are considered suspicious, he
said during at a news conference.
The fires probably were set by members of the Earth Liberation
Front, said Special Agent Willie Hulon, head of the Detroit FBI
office. The letters "ELF" and anti-sprawl messages were
spray-painted on houses or construction equipment at both scenes.
ELF members have claimed responsibility for all four fires,
according to the group's Web site.
The ELF describes itself as "an international underground
organization that uses direct action in the form of economic
sabotage to stop the destruction of the natural environment."
Authorities are treating the fires as criminal acts and not as
terrorist activity, Hulon said.
A construction industry representative condemned the fires as
attacks on personal property rights.
"The construction that takes place in these communities is
based on people's demand and their right to exercise freedom of
choice," said Steve Perlman, president of the Building Industry
Association of Southeast Michigan.
"The ELF is not opposed to housing developments that fill a
need in communities," the group's press office said in response to
an e-mail request for comment on the Superior Township arsons. But
it said luxury projects "are accelerating the destruction of
forested areas, wetlands and other areas of environmental concern
across North America."
The loss of farmland and undeveloped land to residential and
commercial use has become a contentious issue in Michigan in recent
years. Earlier this year, Gov. Jennifer Granholm created a task
force to study ways to curb urban sprawl and regulate land
development in the state.
Supervisors of Washington and Superior townships said their
communities are working to promote responsible development while
respecting property rights.
Washington Township has an open space ordinance requiring that
developers set aside a percentage of the area they are developing
for parks or other recreational uses, Supervisor Gary Kirsh said.
Superior Township has passed ordinances meant to protect
farmland and woodlands in the central part of the township. The
subdivision where the arsons took place is located along a busy
freeway on a mostly treeless, 50-acre site that had not been farmed
for "a significant amount of time," Supervisor Bill McFarlane
said.
"We hope law enforcement brings this to a quick close,"
McFarlane said. "To suggest these arsons are preventing sprawl is
absolutely ridiculous."
---
Anyone with information about the March 21 fires in the Mystic
Woods subdivision in Superior Township and the June 4 fires in the
Willow Ridge subdivision in Washington Township is asked to contact
their local law enforcement agency or the Michigan State Police
arson tip line at 1-800-44-ARSON.
---
On the Net:
http://www.fbi.gov/

(Copyright 2003 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

[fallujahff]

Anonymously? What about the owner of the website? Start with him/her. Make an example of one of them, and try to get more.

Yeah these guys--

Thurston, Darren (EARTHLIBERATIONFRONT-DOM)
NO ORG NAME
PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
Vancouver, B.C. V5N1G8
CA

Domain Name: EARTHLIBERATIONFRONT.COM

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Thurston, Darren (DTT61) [email protected]
PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
Vancouver BC V5N1G8
CA
604-618-5469

Record expires on 22-Nov-2003.
Record created on 04-May-2002.
Database last updated on 12-Jun-2003 17:21:02 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.228
DNS2.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.4


Uh OH! Foriegn Terrorists again! I guess the FBI and CIA can do something now---

Give me a little time and I can find out more. There real problem is that the feds are really really bad at using technology to do/find out things--

[fallujahff]

Surpirse Surprise

Well, well well--

Registrant:
Darren Thurston (ANIMALLIBERATION2-DOM)
PO Box 78061, 2606 Commercial Drive
Vancouver, BC V5N1G8
CA

Domain Name: ANIMALLIBERATION.NET

Administrative Contact, Technical Contact:
Enviroweb (TE864-ORG) [email protected]
EnviroLink Network
P.O. Box 8102
Pittsburgh, PA 15217
US
999 999 9999 fax: 123 123 1234

Record expires on 25-Jul-2003.
Record created on 16-Oct-2002.
Database last updated on 12-Jun-2003 17:28:09 EDT.

Domain servers in listed order:

DNS.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.228
DNS2.ENVIROWEB.ORG 208.40.195.4

Which leads to:

Domain Name: ENVIROWEB.COM
Registrar: BULKREGISTER.COM, INC.
Whois Server: whois.bulkregister.com
Referral URL: http://www.bulkregister.com
Name Server: NS1.LTTI.NET
Name Server: NS2.LTTI.NET
Status: ACTIVE
Updated Date: 05-nov-2001
Creation Date: 17-jan-1998
Expiration Date: 16-jan-2004

which leads to:

Bulkregister, Inc
10 E Baltimore St. Ste 1500
Baltimore, MD 21202
US

Domain Name: BULKREGISTER.COM

Administrative Contact -
Bulk Register, Inc - [email protected]
Bulkregister, Inc
10 E. Baltimore Street Suite 1500
Baltimore, Maryland 21202
US
Phone - 410-234-3350
Fax -
Technical Contact -
X Pert - [email protected]
BulkRegister
10 east baltimore st suite 1500
Baltimore, MD 21202
US
Phone - 410.234.3309
Fax -

Record update date - 2003-04-10 16:30:23
Record create date - 1999-02-01
Record will expire on - 2012-09-08
Database last updated on - 2003-06-12 17:30:46 EST

Domain servers in listed order:

NS.ALABANZA.COM 209.239.47.252
NS2.ALABANZA.COM 209.239.47.201
NS3.ALABANZA.COM 216.226.19.254

Viola! A little of thatr wonderfully heavy handed patriot act stuff should yield at least a wire tap or two and make the scum.. terrorist sweat a little--

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

Viola! A little of thatr wonderfully heavy handed patriot act stuff should yield at least a wire tap or two and make the scum.. terrorist sweat a little--

It's not the content of the website that is the crime here. There is no crime in posting how to set fires. Go to your local library. Look for a copy of one of the following: "Steal This Book", "Dirty Tricks (whatever volume you can find)", "Poor Man's James Bond" or the "Anarchist Cookbook". It's all you have to know. You can also buy them quite easily on amazon. Ask the librarian to take the books off the shelf because they teach people to set fires. She will either laugh or give you a lecture about the First Amendment.

Wiretaps will do little good. I log onto that website. Many of you have logged onto those websites. Should we be targeted because was did job-related research?

These people don't have message boards or a monthly newsletter. They are in loosely affiliated small cells. To connect the dots and make a RICO case is very difficult. This fight against these idiots starts and ends locally.

[fallujahff]

C'mon George,

It's not a crime for a woman to stand on a corner in hot pants, but it's pretty obvious what's gonna happen--

So what do you fine brothers in blue do?

You watch and wait for the crime to occur, then pick them up--

I guess a better analogy would be the drug dealer thing--you follow the crack heads, get thier dealers, get them when the crime is committed all the while seeinf who they associate with then move on up the chain until you all sit on page one with the big bad guys in jail--

Take a lesson from our president-kill thier money-you see thier "marketing guys", follow them until you see who they're hangin out with and who is paying the bill.

I understand it's not that simple, but I also know it's not that hard.

If we have learned anything from 911 and OK City, it's that we cannot underestimate the guile and tenacity of these terrorists--

Man, if a bunch of tree hugger arsonists obviously based in the Pennsylvania area can get by us then we are in a world of hurt and all this "biowarfare" stuff everybody is planning for will not make a bit of difference.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

C'mon George,

It's not a crime for a woman to stand on a corner in hot pants, but it's pretty obvious what's gonna happen--

So what do you fine brothers in blue do?

You watch and wait for the crime to occur, then pick them up--

OK, that'll work. We can stake out every construction site, every fur store, every meat packing plant, every car dealer, etc. and wait for the fire to occur. Great idea!

Also, are you advocating censoring of web sites to eliminate controversial information?

I guess a better analogy would be the drug dealer thing--you follow the crack heads, get thier dealers, get them when the crime is committed all the while seeinf who they associate with then move on up the chain until you all sit on page one with the big bad guys in jail--

Take a lesson from our president-kill thier money-you see thier "marketing guys", follow them until you see who they're hangin out with and who is paying the bill.

I have already explained the problem with this approach. Do you honestly believe that law enforcement would not love to get these guys if they had a clue who they were?

I understand it's not that simple, but I also know it's not that hard.

OK. Then prepare an operational plan as to what targets you would go after, the manpower you wold need, the equipment you would need, the vehicles you would need, what investigative plan you would make and where your base of operations would be. Forward it to me and I will take it to the FBI Field Office in Newark for implementation.

BTW, intelligence tells us that these groups are NOT based in PA.

[fallujahff]

OK, that'll work. We can stake out every construction site, every fur store, every meat packing plant, every car dealer, etc. and wait for the fire to occur. Great idea!

No, just the ones that the terrorists plan on burning--I wonder if before 9/11 soemone out there said "yeah but we'd have to stake out every flight school, every airline terminal..."

Also, are you advocating censoring of web sites to eliminate controversial information?

Falling back to the old PC attack? No George, besides, it would run all your clues out of town.

Do you honestly believe that law enforcement would not love to get these guys if they had a clue who they were?

You're law enforcement, I gave you a clue....

OK. Then prepare an operational plan as to what targets you would go after, the manpower you wold need, the equipment you would need, the vehicles you would need, what investigative plan you would make and where your base of operations would be. Forward it to me and I will take it to the FBI Field Office in Newark for implementation.

NO, NO, No---that's your job (law enforcement) That's what we (the taxpayers) pay you for-your supposed to tell us what you need and do the job-I get paid to put out fires, cut people out of cars, save lives, cats in trees etc.

I know we are all too busy out there buying level umpteen hazmat suits to clean up all that anthrax but we all need to remember that all terrorists are not arab and not all terrorists hang out with bin laden and al-Qaida.

I would have thought that we would all be thinking of the worst case scenario since the worst case scenario actually happened (9/11)

[5pts384]

ELF

How about haveing someone sit at the obvious sites with a shot gun. High priced houses in a "rural area" are a magnet for these people.

[GeorgeWendtCFI]

No, just the ones that the terrorists plan on burning--I wonder if before 9/11 soemone out there said "yeah but we'd have to stake out every flight school, every airline terminal..."

OK, now that we have established you have NO background in law enforcement...

Do you have any idea how many residential construction sites there are in the US? This is not one group. This is a loosely affiliated group of many, many cells, operating independently. These attacks have occurred from Oregon to Pennsylvania. There is absolutely no way of determining which sites "..terrorists plan on burning...".

Falling back to the old PC attack? No George, besides, it would run all your clues out of town.

Not a PC attack at all. You equated the web site with a prostitute hangin out on the street. You probably noticed that these groups do not announce their attacks ahead of time.

NO, NO, No---that's your job (law enforcement) That's what we (the taxpayers) pay you for-your supposed to tell us what you need and do the job-I get paid to put out fires, cut people out of cars, save lives, cats in trees etc.

I know we are all too busy out there buying level umpteen hazmat suits to clean up all that anthrax but we all need to remember that all terrorists are not arab and not all terrorists hang out with bin laden and al-Qaida.

I would have thought that we would all be thinking of the worst case scenario since the worst case scenario actually happened (9/11)

Spare me the terrorist lectures. Half of each of my work days are spent on issues related to counter terrorism. I think if you will go back in these threads, you will find I was the one bringing forth the information on this group. I have investigated incidents in which the ELF was involved. I know what I am talking about. Rest assured, when arrests can be made in domestic terrorism cases, they are made. The investigations are aggressive. But you are not dealing with your typical organized criminal group. They will be brought down.

And just as an aside, I don't consider the burning of a construction site a "worst case scenario".