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Who does not respond to accidents and why?

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  • Rescue 101
    replied
    Farmboy,you must be from a farm.Where you buying "new" trucks for 100k?Try 2-500k.

    Gonzo,PD canceled Fire on a MVA the other day.I was within a half mile of the scene and continued my response routine.On arrival I could smell propane (now remember this is just a fender bender)opened the trunk to find 3 twenty # propane tanks one of which had got jostled and the valve turned on.After the incident,we cornered the Deputy chief and went to the dispatch center for a chat with the Police chief.Now, once Fire is dispatched ONLY A FIRE OFFICER can modify/cancel the response.End of story,Case closed.T.C. Division 7

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  • shammrock54
    replied
    I've got to go w/Eng 20 and all the others, as a town/city/county FD not to respond to an accident is openning your dept up to a potential legal nightmare. my town has finally started to get it through to alomost all of the members of our PD that any mva w/damage or pain(even if the pt doesnt want treatment) needs to have our rescue go explain the pts rights and obtain a signed refusal of treatment and transport. plus the Hazmat concerns. If anything ever went to court the PD and the FD could swing, plus if you were the closest ems or even first aid unit to an mva and a person died because of travel time of another unit there could be some questions that few would welcome or careers could survive.

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  • Eng20
    replied
    I have spent 25 years in providing fire protection to the citizens of a city with over 1.5 million people with the last several years as an officer and acting battalion chief and what I am reading here surprised the Hell out of me. When I first went to the fire academy, I always was taught that when someone pulled an alarm box, called 911 or whatever phone number they used at the time, they always expected the fire department would always showe up. In reading the articles posted on this topic, I am not sure that?s true any more and certainly not happening in other parts of the country. How we did things her may not been the best way to handle things in other parts of the country, but we always put our citizens first. Our guidelines required a piece of apparatus (engine/truck) and a rescue squid along with a BC respond to accidents with injuries regardless how minor. It did not matter if it was a side street or on I-95, it was classified as a possible rescue with hazards. The justification posted by some because there PD or ambulance service will get here in a couple of minutes to determine if fire is needed suggest that some fire departments forgot why they even exist.

    Why not have the fire department dispatched and if you?re first arriving officer makes a decision your not need, then have the equipment placed in service. You don?t need to put 5 or 6 pieces of equipment on the street. If your equipment is set up properly you only need one piece to respond and maybe a second as a support vehicle. For Volunteer departments, I understand that you may have a staffing problem if you run to many calls. And sometimes have to call your neighboring department for manpower. But if staffing is a problem, citizens should not suffer for it, these issues should be taken to your mayor, manager or city council and have then solve the problem. If a national poll was held and people where asked ? If they where involved in an accident , who did they think would be showing up at the accident?, I would be incline to believe the answer would be, ? police, fire and ambulance?. I think most people in the fire service would think the same.

    Not to respond to calls where lives are at risk in my opinion is a mistake. Your department has to live with its policys, but I believe you are being unfair to the people of your community.

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  • NYSEMTD
    replied
    OK, I can not speak for other parts of the country, but here in Central NY, a REscue, and an engine are rolled for all MVA's (or at least a rescue). The reason for this? Simple, Rescue is trained to deeal with the potential hazard that is represented by a damaged vehicle, EMS is not. Being trined on both ends, and still holding my cert as an extrication specialist/trainer, I know both sides of the fence.

    In EMS, we are trained to handle the care of the patient, to get them out of the vehicle if damages are not too severe to require extrication. What we are not trained in, is problems that can be caused by un-deployed airbags (those side ones canbe a reall pain) battery sparks, leaking fluids etc. This is where rescue comes in. They are trained to stabilize the car, not just physically so it dies not roll over on us, but also so that it does not blow up on us eaither. (blow up is used as a very generic term here, I know that rarely do cars explode like we see in the movies). Yes, if it is just a minor fenderbender (called a 79 here) then rescue may not be needed, and can be cancelled and returned to quarters, but if it is serious (called an 80 here) then rescue is definately needed. They assist the PD with traffic, they assist EMS to extricate, they assist in clean up etc.

    So, in closing, Rescue and EMS SHOULD go hand in hand on any MVA..... PERIOD.

    And denver Jarhead: I am thinking that you are really nothing more than some 14 year old moron who unsticks himself from his livestock long enough to come in here and try to feel important by tossing your discrimatory, uneducated views around. Go home, play with your animals, and leave the Fire/Rescue/EMS stuff to the adults who know what they are doing. Watching ER, 3rd Watch, NYPD Blue, and Emergency! do not count as training.

    Jim

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  • SHED376
    replied
    Denver, are you just trying to stir the pot? First you make it seem like I have a problem with women f.f.'s and emt's. Now you've gone off on another tangent and decided that because I'm lucky enough to get paid to be a firefighter, that I hate volunteers. How did you get that? I actually started with a volunteer service, got hired at a career dept., moved to a suburb, and joined that volunteer dept. So I guess I've got the best of both worlds! Don't make assumptions when you don't have a clue!

    I agree with an earlier post, that it depends upon the district. We simply roll the engine for BLS as a first responder, and as manpower for moving a pt., a CPR, extrication, immobilizing, and safety. To me it just makes sense, if the engine is there, why not use it(and it's people). Does everyone carry atleast BLS equipment with a defib on their engines/ladders?

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  • Tailboard_Jockey
    replied
    err...whatever!

    Farmboy, I would love to see your version of a medical aid call!

    Farmboy:"Okay, Mr. Jones, I'm deputizing you as a medic, because I know that you've watched ER a time or two. I want you to start a line on this guy! Officer, stop directing traffic and come over here, I need you to defib that lady right there! What do you mean you don't know how to do that? Don't tell me you've never seen 'Third Watch'!"

    Leave a comment:


  • mxz670
    replied
    We respond on all MVA's with injury with our rescue pumper. this gives us the abbility for fire supression if the need arrises, and also carries our supplies for fuel spills etc. also all the hydraulic tools, airbags etc. Being a volenteer dept. a chief officer responds to the scene POV, and if there is no apparent need for an engine it will be held or canceled. We contract to a private EMS agency, therefore we run about 280 fire/rescue calls per year.

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  • Mike W
    replied
    To Farmboy, I have to say I have a reason F.D. should be disp[atched to all MVA w/Injuries. Let me give you a quick run down of my city.
    Usually have 4-5 Police officers on shift, they work zones, We have a private EMS service and they are an excellant service, but we have over 19,000 people 21 sq. miles and growing rapidly. And an all Vol. F.D.
    Now reason 1) Our Private EMS is very busy and quite often has every ambualnce they have out. (They by the way are in the process of expanding). So an accident out in B.F.E. they can take 10-15 minutes to get their.
    2) P.D. knows nothing about extrication and whether or not it is needed. Unless it is obvious like the doors can not be opened. So P.D. is on scene in 3min. So we now have 13-18 min before an ambulance gets there. Ambulance is on scene and uh-oh we need extrication dispatch fire.
    3) Remember all Volunteer, so the tones go off and it can take 4-6 min. to get enough people qualified to do extrication to get a rig out. So we are at roughly 23 min. before a rig rolls. another 10-15 minutes to get across town due to the ingenious driving of motorists when they see lights and hear sirens. So here we are at close to 40 min. to get on scene. And as we all know time is critical.

    We have been doing it this way for years and so far have not had a fatal car accident in at least 5 years. Though we don't have many extrications, and this way works for us. But, I'm sure there are other depts. that have the same type of setup that this way cannot work for. And this situation may never come up but it IS entirely possible.

    These are MY views and in no way are intended to disgrace my dept., dept heads or anyone else for that matter. They are just my thoughts on a certain subject.

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  • NY Smokey
    replied
    AMEN CAPTAIN GONZO!

    Couldn't be said any better.

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  • Captain Gonzo
    replied
    FD should be part of the response to any motor vehicle accident. We do not have the crystal ball or Ms. Cleo's psychic powers. We do not know if people are injured, numbers of people injured, if any hazardous materials are involved, etc.

    Safety in numbers..if the first arriving police unit states that the accident is just a minor bumperthumper/fenderbender with no injuries, the FD can always be returned to quarters. If the bovine scatology has hit the fan, the troops are either on the way or already there
    for rescue, EMS, fire suprression and hazmat mitigation.

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  • woodyjr551
    replied
    this denver guy is a sh*t stiring ...... the purpose for a the big red trucks are to provide services plain and simple whether it be fire rescue or ems type services ...dispachers can only relay what they are told and most of the time it is from some one who has NO clue what they are lookin at....bls units are for medical care not all the other jobs that need done on the scene....my bls crew WILL have the protection of a 40,000 lb rig between them and traffic and fire police WILL slow traffic down and the state police WILL have the piece of mind that they need only worry about investagating the crash
    as far as waiting till WE get there to cut as i read in a earlier post ...WOW....why in the world would you wait ???? i can see waiting if the dash is holding a bleeder closed but come on the "golden 1/2 hour" is burnin away here does everyone remember the basics here???you lose 1 person to C-spine alone and having a untrained person helping with patient removal is NOT the best thing IF a trained fd is available ...as far as hershey is concerned i am familar with the area and the chief has a good set up because the pd is RIGHT there this is not the way things work everywhere ..psp for us could be up to 45 minutes away...hmmm think we should wait cause we dont want to run our $330,000 fire truck? or did we spend this money to serve the public....we are here to protect and serve it doesnt matter if we are protecting the public or bls or the patient it is why we serve..to help ANY way we can ..if you think that the many times we run on one we are not cutting on and the few we do and the timely response saves a life doesnt that make it all worth it??
    i suppose the long and short of it is where your coverage area is and the services available cities differ from rural ...
    i do believe this though ..denver if i crash in your area ...you can keep watching pbs...with your attitude i really dont want you touching me ...
    jeff

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  • PA Volunteer
    replied
    This issue is best decided on an area by area basis. In our area, there are more police and EMS on scene at all accidents than anyone could know what to do with. Thus, bringing FD to all accident's w/ injuries can only make the situation worse. The FD absolutely responds on all accidents where the situation warrants. Although, in probably 99 out of 100 accidents, the FD would only make the scene more congested, or would be cancelled enroute. The other 1 out of 100 accidents, the FD is on the initial dispatch. A universal rule that says that FD should respond to all accidents w/ injuries, or that FD should never respond to accidents w/ injuries can not be applied to this situation. The decision must be made on a case by case basis.

    If your area warrants FD response to all accidents w/ injuries, then by all means, do it. I can not tell the FD in Denver, or LA, or bumstick, USA how they should dispatch the FD to accidents w/ injuries. I can only determine how the situation should be handled in our first due area.

    Stay safe.

    Leave a comment:


  • DenverFarmboy
    replied
    Ya'know SHED, just the other night I was watchin' Antique's Road Show on PBS (yes, I DO have some class ) and they was showin' them old plaques that use 2 hang on houses & such for all them fire company's (cia. 1800/ early 1900's)and I got to thinkin', ( I know, a Dangerous thing for the likes of me); HOW the heck did we survive them days and HOW do we survive TODAY with Vollintire Dept's all over the country????

    I mean I don't know HOW many times I've seen "Professional" FF's pull civ's off the sceen to pull hose, direct traffict, even run a handline, etc... I mean, were U born with some "special" firefightin' gene, or or you use like everyone; you gotta' little trainin' and all of a sudden civ's are a "lesser being"???

    NOT that training IS VERY imporant, but really, come on, with a few simple instructions can't anybody with enough common sence 2 pour **** out a boot do most "basic" FF chores?? I ain't "dissin'" NOBODY here, but come on, are ALL FF's born with a big "S" on their chests, or do we all do what just "needs 2 be done"???

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  • SHED376
    replied
    Denver, come on man, are you suggesting pulling civilians in on your scene and have them help you backboard people? I realize it's not rocket science, but would'nt it be nice to have a little xtra trained and qualified help? Or better yet, how does the chief feel about a big ole' liability suit when the civillian with no training, being directed by your ambulance crew, screws up and hurts a pt. worse than what they already are? Just let the engine come on in and lend a hand, I promise it won't hurt anything, and it may even help matters!And whats with the "female" comment? I hope you wer'nt insinuating anything, and I hope I did'nt give you the wrong idea. Thinking outside the box, is what I get paid for, it's just that sometimes the answer is'nt all that complicated.
    Shed

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  • DenverFarmboy
    replied
    Jedi: Niether do I think I'm 100 % right nor do I not listen 2 others. I'm just an onery s**t how likes to get people thinkin'.
    Would LOVE 2 hear your thoughts.

    And SHED: accully, they run 3: an EMT driver, an EMT and a Paramedic. So. 3 ambulance attendants, 1 or 2 cops and ???civ's, guess they could load up about anybody. Even with female EMT's/Paramedics and/or PD officers.

    REMEMBER folks, . . . think outside the box; improvise , impilment , OVERCOME !!!

    PEACE

    Leave a comment:

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