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  • #16
    JunkyardDog,

    The Nova Quintechs are single axles, that's the problem as i said in an earlier post, they overloaded some of these rigs (they went over the axle ratings) and had to cut down on equipement.

    It is the Quebec City FD (QC, Canada) that operate these, because the streets are so narrow. Stock 100' 4 section aerials with dual rear axles are out of the question, they just won't fit in some of the streets.


    Comment


    • #17
      ...h. Tower, how do you know theres 3500 lbs. available on the rear and 2400 lbs. on the front???

      i JUST RAN 7 OF THEM ACCROSS A SCALE FOR AN iso GRADING.

      ....- gee,the7tower, didn't know you were down here sitting with all the other guys on our apparatus committee.

      WELL JUST LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE RUNNING, THEY ARE BASE MODEL PIERCES WITH A FEW EXTRA WARNING LIGHTS. NOT TOO TOUGH TO SEE THAT. THERE WERE SEVERAL REALLY NICE RIGS AT PIERCE WHEN YO PICKED YOURS UP LIKE MASON-DEERFIELDS, REMEMBER????

      ... Not that it mattered-

      SURE IT DOES, YOU GUYS ARTICLES ARE AN EMBARRISMENT TO THE FIRE SERVICE. YOUR FIRST QUINT IS BETTER THAN THE NEW ONES, TELL THE TRUTH., RIGHT???

      ... the guys downtown scraped all of what the suppression guys requested.

      SO WHY WHINE ABOUT THE RIGS, CRY ABOUT ADMIN INSTEAD

      ....-It's not so much that the stick is actually in the hosebed. It's more like on top of the hosebed.

      ON YOURS, NOT ON A RIG THAT IS PROPERLY SPEC'D


      ...-tower, all we really wanted is a unit that can , ya'know, do firefighting stuff. More power to you for saving those taxpayers some greenbacks.

      I'M SURE YOU DID, WHAT YOU ALL SHOULD BE SAYING IS DON'T GO OUT AND BUY 40 RIGS AT ONCE, PROTOTYPE A FEW GET THE BUGS OUT AND THEN COPY THEM.

      ...-geeze-you guys are just about perfect.

      COMPARED TO THE CRAP YOU RUN? YOU BET.

      ....Us poor guys in Richmond should come on down to the "Southeast" and have y'all teach us a thing or two...

      IT IS OBVIOUS WITH ALLTHE INJURIES YOU'VE HAD AND BAD PRESS YOU HAVE A LOT TO LEARN

      ....He has rightly asked those who have experience with these beasts(Richmond being one- as we now have 20 of the darned things)

      YEAH 20 BAD EXPERINECES.

      ...what their ideas were on getting the best for their buck.

      HOW WOULD YO KNOW RUNNING CRAP???

      ....I think you will find that Quint is pretty much getting to be a term synonamous with "Hey,let's cutback the budget for the FD

      SO YOU SPENT 14.5 MILLION MORE, THAT IS CUTTING BACK???

      ....by buying these things because a Quint can do EVERYTHING a FD needs with HALF the manpower".

      IS THAT WHAT YOUARE SUGGESTING?

      .....I can tell you with 99.9% certainty that ONE Engine and ONE Truck will do the job better, more safely , and more professionally than ONE Quint.

      HOW WOULD YOU KNOW, YOU'VE NEVER RUN A QUINT WITH DOUBLE STAFFING, OR ONE PROPERLY SPEC'D.

      HAVING GONE HEAD TO HEAD WITH A QUINT VERSUS AN ENGINE AND LADDER IN FORNT OF 170 FIREFIGHTERS AND HAVING KICKED THEIR TAILS SOUNDLY EVEN THOUGH THEY HAD TWICE THE STAFFING, I WOULDN'T BE SO SURE.

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      • #18


        [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]

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        • #19
          Gee Schmidt

          Why don't you guys write a story in every magazine telling how stupidly you designed and operate your fire department? I've only stated facts.

          ...by "you Guys" I assume you mean Lt. Jake Rixner? I don't think his articles are an embarrasment,pal. All the kind Lt. is trying to do is pass on a little knowledge. Granted none of his articles will get any awards- but his heart is in the right spot. And , to tell the truth, the Ferrara we bought first has just as many problems as the rest pal.

          Oh I see, here is an article about how stupid we were as an organization. Only took us 6 months to figure out how to load the hose bed (your line) Uh Huh UH HUH. Our rigs don't even fit in the fire station Uh HUH Uh HUH uh HUH. The back ends drag all the time UH HUH uh HUH. We pul up fire hydrantslike weed swhen we lay lines Uh HUH uh HUH

          No where did he state the department screwed up in its design, its spec's. Just an message of look out for quints. The title of the article should have been look how stupid we were and 20 ways to be this dumb.

          Instead the story was entitled and sumarized as follows: "TO BUY (OR NOT TO BUY) A QUINT
          "Many fire departments across the country are exploring the possibility of purchasing a quint. These five-function vehicles offer progressive fire service leaders new options on their arrival at the scene of a working fire. "

          I'm sorry, dumb is as dumb does. You shared your laundry, tried to pass the blame and now we all know the truth.

          Ok tell us about the problems with the 75 foot Ferrara. Could it lay hose better? Did it get around town better? Did someone force you to buy that one too?

          Well, "mate" pretty hard to respect a place that says we are a victim. I only speak about what I know a bit about. I know a bit about quints and Richmond.

          Oh, if I've stated anything but the facts about your quints or operations please say so.

          [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: the7tower ]

          Comment


          • #20
            7th Tower, Could you please educate all of us and tell us what your department uses for an aerial. List everything the truck offers,manufaturer of the bidy,chassis,aerial device, pump rating, water tank capacity, seating, aerial size and ratings, axle weights, front and rear, cubic inches of compartment space, hose bed, discharges, etc.

            From this information we can all deign our own " perfect" truck.

            Thank

            Comment


            • #21


              [ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]

              Comment


              • #22
                .......So why is it you feel compelled to disrespect Richmond Fire in such a way?

                Obviously, you all get a kick out of running artiles telling the world about your problems. Disrespect your FD, huh, you all did that yourself.

                Two quints for a car fire.

                Comment


                • #23
                  The7tower, if what you say is true, and I'm not questioning it, why kick em when there down? Some departments think they can make no mistakes, they would rather eat horse crap than to say "look we made these mistakes, try not to do the same." Have a Happy and Safe New Year!


                  Tell your Family you love them.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    .......So why is it you feel compelled to disrespect Richmond Fire in such a way?

                    Obviously, you all get a kick out of running artiles telling the world about your problems. Disrespect your FD, huh, you all did that yourself.

                    Some of the things yuo all have published:

                    Two quints for a car fire.

                    ...As with any radical new concept, "working the bugs out" to optimize performance takes time, commitment, and training by all parties involved.

                    Sounds like you gave up and are not doing oyur part of the deal


                    ...1971...25 two-piece engine, 9 ladders and 2 squads 216 guys per shift.

                    ...1982, 13 engines, 7 (2 piece), 9 trucks, 1 one squad 150 guys.

                    ...1995 20 engines, 6 trucks.

                    All that Jack's fault too????

                    ....Under Jack 20 quints, 9 engines, 3 squads 100 guys

                    Just wonder is the town burning down? Are fires killing more people now that before?

                    ...Got four hours of training on your new quints.

                    Jack's fault? Company officers can't teach. Real FD's don't do these things do they?

                    ...None of the guys had any truck compant experience, you are all pumper specialists but now had to do truck stuff.

                    Sounds like you all led sheltered fire service lives. Real FD's don't do this dothey?

                    No grevances filed???

                    ...Other companies said they didn't havwe any water squirters on the rigs. Never in their career learned how to operate a fire pump.

                    ...While laying hose, couplings would catch rippng hydrants out of the ground like weeds.


                    ....Firefighters getting hurt catching hydrants.

                    Professsionals huh? No warranty on the rigs to be able to lay hose with out this??

                    ....quints are as slow as buses.

                    >>>all these fires where 15 secondswould have made a difference.

                    >>>>fire trucks driven by your pros started hitting cars and things, only when returning from calls

                    but your old larger ladders didn't do that.

                    ...guys are lonely now because almost all stations are single company and the stations are so big built for 12.

                    Almost cried on that one

                    ....It is harder to clean the big stations now.

                    ...Becasue you have to run somany companies larger areas of townare left unprotected.

                    I guess you can't figure out how to do station moveups.

                    ....pre quint this prequint that.

                    The facts are Jack didn't bring the staffing problem with him in fact the old chief's budget insured the same layoffs, closed stations etc. Oh I'm sorry, that was a fact. Staffing issues were going to happen with or without quints.

                    ...we forgot that 75 foot ladders don't work well.

                    hmmm, now you have 5 100 foot ladders and 14 75's, seems to me to be more and the same options are there.

                    ...I had 6 quints and a rescue and one crew forgot they were going to a structure fire and din't take their quint so theyused a 500 gpm pump on a standpipe.

                    Of course it didn't effect the out come of the fire. His point it is too hard to think on his feet.

                    ...you have to use two quints on a car fire. That over a million dollars worth of apparatus was needed on the call.

                    He forgot to mention that there are 23 other rigs that carried plenty of water, some in his smae station that could have gone.

                    ...every one of the 10 FD's he has surveyed using quints said they don't do ladder tasks now.

                    Hmm, that is the rigs fault? He doesn't state if they did them before.

                    ...quotes clark as the difference between paid and volunteers is the quality of truck work.

                    If that isn't a slam to the volunteer fire service that woks just fine with quints I don't know what is. BUT, vollies are not penning stories about poor us and the chief did this to us and we don't know how to pump our rigs or can't figure out how to do truck stuff.

                    ...The author clearly states the roles of each quint on a fire. Two to three are truck work.

                    SOunds like a paid professional union problem to me.

                    ...he says richmond ff's are can do firefighters

                    but keeps telling us they canot think on their feet, or work with the apparatus they nowhave.

                    Just because there is a pump, hose bed and water tank doesn't mean a can do crew can't pull a ladder, vent, salvage, force etc. but in richmond it does.

                    ....before you buy look at your response area, roads bridges, and ask will a quint work here? This one is good to are you willing to train?

                    OK, so how did you screw the pooch and auger in???

                    If conventional pumpers and ladder were not too heavy and could get around why would quints be any different?

                    ...The crux of the richmond problem is identified by the author when he says: " we must never forget that it is the people riding the apparatus who stretch the hose, make the rescues, and knock down fires. "

                    So they are not allowing the concept to work.

                    More proof? "Our quints are big and beautiful with lots of chrome, flashing lights, and other gadgetry. However, if given a choice between modern fire trucks with mediocre firefighters and that "plain-Jane" 1976 Mack pumper with motivated and dedicated firefighters like we had at Engine 5, I'll take the old Mack every trip of the train."

                    See the fire truck doesn't motivate his crew. So if you don't give him what he wants the professional won't work for you.

                    ...."Is there a way to achieve the discipline necessary to accomplish effective ladder company duties using this type of apparatus? If anyone out there has the answer, please share it with us all."

                    A clueless pro admitting he doesn't know what he is doing.

                    ..."This article is strictly the opinion of the author and in no way reflects the position of the Richmond (VA) Fire and Emergency Services Department. "

                    Oh yes it does!!!!!!!!!!


                    The pros and cons listed were a joke as well.

                    ...Pros:
                    ...looks good on paper.
                    ...increase in pump capacity
                    ...Reduction of staffing = saving money. By staffing each quint with four persons,
                    Of course he forgets to mention the staffing was cut before quints came to town

                    ... no need to staff trucks
                    forgot to mentionthe staffing was going to be what it was with or with a quint, so a more accurate statement would have been if you staff trucks you'll have to shut down engines. Of course they could have always cross manned the a traditional ladder and conventional engine in each station rigs thatwoud have solved everything tbecause the quint wouldn't have been there to give the pros an attitude. But then they would have taken the wrong rig to car fires just like they do nowand it would have required to rigs. Gee, these sound like people problems!

                    ...More ladders avaiable

                    ....More flexible apparatus

                    if thecrew doesn't have an attitude.

                    >>>allnew fleet at once that is betterequipped for crew comfort.

                    ...better ladder pipes

                    ...DISADVANTAGES

                    ..too hard for union pros to drive.

                    >>>costs more to maintain fuel etc.
                    than what two rigs??? I don't think so.

                    ...Increased response time,
                    there is a stretch

                    ..Bridge problems
                    maybe but not if you did your homework first.

                    ... Increase in unprotected areas
                    There is this theme, that if you were not cutting our staffing with or without quints, then we'd have all these extra guys and rigs and so everything would be better. The facts are you would need lots of trucks to bring lots of guys and larger areas would be without ladder coverage than they are with quints, oh he forgot that.

                    ...Perfect positioning a must for short ladders

                    pretty much true for long ladders too.

                    ... If you screw up the order you are stuck with it

                    Kinda true with any order isn't it?

                    ....Insufficient personnel for engine and truck functions.
                    I think that is an out right lie. Know, I kow it is. There would have been the same number of guys per rig either way. Same assignments.

                    ...." It is impossible with a staff of only four firefighters to effectively do both engine company functions and truck company work with the same crew."

                    Then why did you post the SOPs that state first rig engine, 2nd truck, 3rd engine , 4th truck, 5th water, 6th truck. Because you don't work that way, that too is an outright lie.

                    ...Fire station renovations

                    kinda depends what you buy with or without quints.

                    ...Departments report ladder functions are not performed.

                    The rig does not do thiose functions. That is a people, policy disapline thing. The rig is quite capable of doing those things

                    ...The quint, does not have enough space to carry the equivalent footage of ground ladders as
                    senior tractor-drawn ladders.

                    Maybe that is a problem with yors, but it is a spec thing, isnt it?

                    ...Small tank.

                    Spec thing. Ours have 2000 gallons.

                    Just because someone wrote an article doesn't mean it istrue, accurate, etc.

                    Is it a quintissue or attitude issue in Richmond???

                    source:


                    http://fe.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=101597&x=y

                    Why bring all this up? They still to this day blame the chief, the rigs, everyone but the end users. Over 1000 quints of almost the same design and builder are out there working just fine. It is obviously a people issue here.

                    Better to listen to a success story than listen to folks whine about all there stupid mistakes.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      7th Tower, you have not answered my question.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Damn Fellows seems I stirred up a hornets nest here.

                        To answer some other questions posed, the unit we are specing will have 4 crosslays 2 200' 2 300" all 1 3/4, a 100' 1" booster reel in the front bumper for Sh-t fires. We expect to load 1200' 5" supply line and 800' 3" feeder or large attack lines in the side stacker. In ref to the reverse lay, 99% of the time we are first in and assume the attack, if a reverse lay is needed we assign that to another eng and most of the time that is to finish a lay from a long lane or drive. Setbacks, yes we have some large setbacks but then we do the drive or lane, and yes most of the time we cannot get a "full size" truck back those anyway, but if we have our quint in the drive or lane the truck Co can come work off our stick as we sometimes work off theirs. My Co has cross, for lack of a better term, trained in Truck Co Operations and not to brag but are fairly proficient on truck operations. Some of our alarms we 2nd in and become a "truck Co" without a truck and I'm sure that will stay that way whether we have a stick or not.

                        Maint wise, yes I believe there will be some additional costs incured but hell if you wanna ride the train you have to buy the tickets, we have a very aggressive maint program in place (which has proven its worth) and usually catch problems when they are small and cheaper to fix.

                        I can see both sides of the small debate that is raging in this topic and will not attempt to take sides, I'm sure training and use of a quint becomes something of an issue with every dept that gets one

                        I would like to thank all of you for the informative session we are having, there is always something to learn. Believe me I am keeping close tabs on this forum topic

                        [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: pres41 ]

                        Pres41 (Pete)
                        [email protected]

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                        • #27
                          http://www.geocities.com/Baja/Trails/6658/specs.html

                          [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: the7tower ]

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            ...

                            [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: the7tower ]

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                            • #29
                              Well the city I work for uses quints,9 of them,but we use them with a midi.I believe thats how they were meant to be used.We went from engine and truck,with 4 on each to 4 and 2 on the quint/midi.

                              The quint takes the front and the midi stops next to quint, shotgun man gets out drags 2 lines to quint and then does truck work along with the ladderman from quint.driver of midi drives to plug and makes it.Driver of quint runs pumps,tipman and lt.go in on line.So six do the work of 8,we didn't want this but we make it work.

                              Now we still have engines and a house fire gets 3 companies,2 engines and a quint/midi or 2 q/m and one engine along with 1 rescue.

                              We do not lay line with the quint the midi feeds it or feeds an engine if they are first in,then the quint runs as a truck.Yes I know we all would love to go back to straight truck/engine.

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                              • #30


                                [ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: Schmidt ]

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