Eng with a stick

[pres41]

My Co is in the process of specing a new piece which will be a quint in this sense of the word, it will be an engine with a stick. When this concept came to light the first thing we did was look at the need (we have 3 100" trucks in our area), we cover just about any hazard you can think of except high rises (4 stories Max in our area), to include SFD's, MOD's, rural area with no water, industrial, warehousing, nursing homes,commercial, wildland. The next point was to consider the operational side of the question, since we have been an engine co for 200 years. After looking at the operational side we found we have been a truck Co without a truck at many of our incidents or we end up operating off someone else's truck. We then looked at our SOP's and determined how they would change. This done we then started writing the spec's keeping in mind we are an engine co and that we were just adding an additional capability.
Trying not to sound to simplistic, In the end we wrote spec's for an engine then added specs for a 75' stick. This rig will be going to bid in the next month or two, so it will be interesting to see what the returns from the bidding process will be.
We feel if we can maintain the Eng co operations as the 1st priority (this is a matter of training)we can become a more effective unit. I'm sure I will stir up the purist with this post, but I am a purist also (an eng is an eng, a truck is a truck)but since I lost this battle I guess we'll see if I will be a convert.
The officers of the Co realized our bread and butter has been Eng Co operations and feel this can be maintained, I guess time will tell.
As part of the whole process, I'm not so sure it will not succeed, and I hope it will,the attitudes are correct and thinking is Eng Co with a stick. Just a footnote, the closest stock rig to what we want right now is the Seagrave Meanstick in the Eng configuration to give you some idea. Of course our specs would require some customizaton.
I'm sure this will invoke some thoughts and all are welcome

Union Fire Co #1 Web Page

[robschmidt]

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]

[the7tower]

Richmond didn't spec their rigs, they ordered a dear whatever you always make send it too us. If they had used even one of what they bought which exist in the hundreds they would have known all of the issues before they owned them.

Go out buy a rig that already exists and is doing the job somewhere successfully. Simply buy a new onw\e with your name on it.

I can assure you, our hose laid wonderfully from day one with no special loading, our rigs cost less than Richmonds and can do a heck of a lot more. We carry 4 to 10 times the water, don't spend a lifetime on maintenance and put more miles on our rigs. Our much larger 5 inch line doesn't hang up, we don't have any chutes and can lay duals, 1300 feet each, our rear ends don't swing out and hit cars, we don't have angle of departure problems, we don't have an abriviated ground ladder compliment, and we didn't nuke our attack line volume, foam capacity, or compartmentation. You don't need to add a mechanical swing out hose bed. If it doesn't make sense on a pumper don't add it to a quint. If you can't load hose with the ladder bedded don't buy the rig. The stick should not be in the hose bed. We use three firefighters to load hose, so ours our not manpower intensive to load.

Don't let one FD's silly decisions on a grand scale effect your concept, it appears you are right on with what you want to do.

[pres41]

Rob:

Several things you mentioned were looked at, the Rear Axle spec is 30,000 lbs which should give us plenty of room, hose bed wise it will be a side stacker hose bed with nothing over top of the hose bed, ie stick, turntable to provide ease of reloading the bed, we lay a lot of it. We have tried to avoid the "bells and whistles", nothing fancy just function to fit the job. Also noted your words about the mirrors, we learned that lesson about the moto mirrors on the door with one other piece we have, so they are going on the cab.

Tower as you said this thing is designed to do the job as an "engine", not much in frills, no CAFS, (damn hard to justify the cost on that one), will have a small amount of Class A with a simple eduction system. Ease of reloading was on everyone's mind when writing the specs (we run over 900 alarms a year), when you think about it reloading a rig is more labor intensive than putting the damn fire out.

Pete

[MFD]

I always thought a quint was kinda of a short stick(like 50-60 ft)with pump and small tank on it.Now if this is true wouldn't this work except if you get a larger ladder.sorry if this sounds stupid cause our closest quint is like a hour away.most everyone usually around here(except the well provided f.d. get pumpers and tankers but we got 2 good size sticks in the county(around 100 ft).

[ADSNWFLD]

Just have onne question for you. Do you ever do a reverse lay? If you do the stick is useless, it is down by the hydrant. Also what are your building setbacks? 75' may sound like a lot but you may find yourself short.

If you have three trucks in the area save your money a just buy an engine. An option would be to put a 35' ground ladder on your rig for the extra reach. With the quint you'll loose hosebed space and the flexability to try different lays.

For the quint to be of use you always have to park in front or forward in. Not to mention the best spot for the ladder may not be the best spot for the engine to strech lines.

BTW the engine on the website looks great, if it works well for you don't change. If ISO is your concern the auto aid trucks will count.

Good Luck

[the7tower]

.... Do you ever do a reverse lay?

With a side stacker hose bed, you can lay dual LDH lines which will provide the same water as siting at the hydrant pumping the line.

....If you do the stick is useless, it is down by the hydrant.

Ok, for every fire anyone has ever fought what percenatage of yor fires were put out with a hose line versus the numberof fires where the stick was employed? I bet it wouldn't even be noticed the rare case you sat at a hydrant.

....Also what are your building setbacks? 75' may sound like a lot but you may find yourself short.

Ok, the set backs are 100 to 130 feet. Are you suggesting he buy a 150 to 200 foot ladder? Odds ar his 75 footer can go up the drive way where as a 100 foot plus beast counldn't even make the turn.

.... With the quint you'll loose hosebed space and the flexability to try different lays.

Yeah we can only get 2100 feet of 5 inch and 1400 fet of attack line on our side stackers.

....For the quint to be of use you always have to park in front or forward in. Not to mention the best spot for the ladder may not be the best spot for the engine to strech lines.

You can stretch hose you can't stretch ladders, place it as a ladder. But like everyone odds are the stick almost never goes up.

....If ISO is your concern the auto aid trucks will count.

Maybe then again maybe not. One thing for sure, you'll get more credit for a quint that you will an engine or ladder. Another thing typical ISO credit for auto aid is 40 to 60%. It is rarely credited for the entire response area if at all.

Sounds to me like you've done your homework.

[ADSNWFLD]

"You can stretch hose you can't stretch ladders, place it as a ladder. But like everyone odds are the stick almost never goes up."

Very true, so if the ladder almost never goes up then why carry it around on your engine. The additional weight and maintenance aren't worth it.
If you are using dual 5" lays then I am guessing you are using preconnects. Just how long are you going to make them? 250' 300' I guess that would be OK for the long stretch. But what about the shorter lays. Kind of defeats the reason that the line is preconnected.

Who is "we" can we see a picture of this quint.

If it is the one I'm thinking of pres41 is going to be a bit shocked at its size.

[q66fire]

Your rear axle is very important, because it is very easy to overload it on a larger unit. If possible go with two axles at the rear. A department near where i am learned to their own expense, they were carrying much to much equipement on a single axle 100 ' quint and had to cut down on hose and other equipement.

happy holidays to all

[PFDE4]

We use quints around here are as follows.
They are an engine when responding on "still alarms" which would be car fires, medicals, etc.
When assigned on a box they are ladder companies.
However if they begin a engine company fuction at a box , then the officer will state that they are operating as an engine and another ladder company will be sent.

As far as ISO rating were we told that they are either a ladder or an engine, not both.

We try to avoid using them to lay lines, since the hose is packed around the ariel base.
Currently we have 2 quints, one is a 100 ft, the other a 75.
In hindsight the 75 ft should have been a 100 ft considering the buildings we have.

[the7tower]

...The additional weight and maintenance aren't worth it.

Really, what is the cost for weight and maintenance on a 75 foot quint?

....If you are using dual 5" lays then I am guessing you are using preconnects. Just how long are you going to make them? 250' 300' I guess that would be OK for the long stretch. But what about the shorter lays. Kind of defeats the reason that the line is preconnected.

We have 50's 150's and 400's. I'm sure they all pull faster than any make and break. But it does eliminate the reverse lay need for the quint.

....If it is the one I'm thinking of, going to be a bit shocked at its size.

That is funny, it is a full 7 feet shorter and 9000 pounds lighter than the bronken down rig you you spec'd and are always crying about. It is a mere 2 to 3.5 feet longer maybe that the side stacker he plans to buy.

...our rear axle is very important,

a 75 foot side stacker fully loaded on a single axle still has 3500 left at the rear and 2800 front, with 500 gallonsand 6 guys in the cab.

.... If possible go with two axles at the rear.

not unless you have too, it will effect turning, angleof departure, compartmentation, etc. If you add axles thenit should be for need, ie water, larger ladder, etc.

... they were carrying much to much equipement on a single axle 100 ' quint and had to cut down on hose and other equip.

You won't have to worry about that, no one makes a 100 foot quint on a single rear end.

[MFD]

maybe i'm old-fashion type but(but i know personally) I just like getting ladders off the truck versus having a ladder on a truck taking up space. I know there's advantages and disadvantages to both. the thing i like about ground ladders is how quick they are. you park the truck, you and another guy grab the ladder adjust it to the height you want. put up on the side where you want. then make sure it's secure. then usually other guys are hooking up a line and it's charged by your side and your ready to climb the ladder.I know the some of the videos i watched Boston F.D. perfer ground ladders too

[q66fire]

the7tower

You are right about the fact that nobody builds 100 ' quints on a rear axle as a standart model, but when lenght is a question and you need a 100' ladder, well the builder might make an exception for $ 700,000 !!!

The units i'm talking about are 100' five sections sky-five aerials built by Nova Quintech on Spartan cabs (single axle). They have 1500 gpm pumps 200 gal water and carry about 800 feet of ldh, plus carry ground ladders. Not bad considering they mesure only 32 feet in lenghts ! Oh, i forget they have 8v71 475 hp engines and can seat 6 FFs.



[ 12-30-2001: Message edited by: q66fire ]

[JunkyardDog]

7th. Tower, how do you know theres 3500 lbs. available on the rear and 2400 lbs. on the front???

Also, this 100 Nova Quintech - it is a tandem axle correct ???

[robschmidt]

[ 01-23-2002: Message edited by: Schmidt ]