Ventilation Question

[HOTDOG]

A comment in the post started by Maplewood FD by firstdue 379 prompted me to write this post.

firstdue 379 says: I know a department that uses horizontal ventilation when they first arrive on scene. Lets just say they burn a few down.

My question is this: Does your department use ventilation (positive pressure) upon entering for the initial attack? What prompts you to/not to ventilate prior to an initial attack.

What bothers me most about what firstdue states is the burning down part. My dept has used this method since we purchased our first ppv many years ago. Granted there are several factors that warrant use of ppv prior to initial entry, but when conditions warrant successful use, we use it and love it. It greatly improves visibility and aids in getting to the seat of the fire. Wanting input from others.

It bothers me that some get on here and bash what other depts do because they choose not do do so. There are no two depts in the world that operate the same, and instead of bashing what others do, take what knowledge you can from others and improve on it....find what works best for you and your dept and do that.

Thank you in advance.

[FireCapt1951retired]

Simply put, it all depends on the progression of the fire itself. There are many scenerios (fire on more than one floor, multiple locations, one room etc) that you could face over a number of years. I just suggest you train with the PPV and learn when its use can be an effective tool. PPV can be an asset when used properly, when not used properly it can become a nightmare causing the progression of the fire to escalate and its path of travel to change. Remember that the requirements call for an exit to be no less than 75% and no more than 150% of the opening being used for the PPV. If you can live with this size opening PPV is the way to go. The whole object is to try and contain the fire to one area without forcing it into other areas of the structure. Again I'll state, train in its use. It has its advantages and its disadvantages depending on conditions.

[BTFD11-19]

We Will usually use horizontal ventilation with the assitance of positive pressure fan, just after the intial knock-down, never durng initial attack. But thats just us, and it works for us, gets the smoke out, to see better quicker, and cool down the heat, to protect the hosemen.

[elkhound]

Agreed PPV should be used after knockdown but not before. For instance if there was a fire in a bedroom you would want to open the bedroom window after setting up the fan (therefore hopefully after knockdown). If you opened any other window before extinguishment you risk drawing the fire with the escaping air into that area. Make sense??

[jmichael]

I like to look at it as positive pressure ventilation and positive pressure attack. We use positive pressure ventilation. Upon arrival the officer walks around locates the area of fire involvement and vents. (look for fire,smoke, smoke stains around windows general indicators of the location of the fire in the structure). Nozzle man flakes hose to front door officer comes and enters structure with nozzle man. Building is now opened up horizontally to allow smoke and steam out. Truck crew arrival sets up for more ventilation. Attack crew radios command what is burning. Room and contents may get positive pressure ventilation (command decision) or more natural ventilation. hope this helps.

[truckie_ladderco_147]

We have used PPV a couple times but was only to remove smoke from a food on stove call.Other than that we do vertical and horizontal.If we are in a hydrant area we use the hydraulic ventalation.And Hotdog AMEN BROTHER! No two departments do it the same.

[BLACKSHEEP1]

This is the way I liked to do it at as an officer with 3 guys (me,driver and firefighter).When we pull up, if there's anything to it I make a lap,shut off the utilities, try to ID the fire area (say a back bedroom), and vent the window to that room while the firefighter and driver get the hose to the door, then I join the firefighter at the door and we go in. (with the 2in 2out deal we're looking for another unit but it pretty much works the same, so be flexible). This doesn't work if it is in the attic of course. As soon as we have a knock down and check for extension the fan is turned on for ppv ( a good driver will already have it at the door). Now if that doesn't happen you can vent with the narrow angle fog, or if you have a smooth bore, take the tip off and half-open the bale, it makes a passable 30degree pattern and can be used to vent as well. That's how it's supposed to ge but sometimes.....

[HOTDOG]

In reading my initial post, I think I need to clarify a few things.

We use Positive pressure ventilation (to clear smoke and gas after initial attack) on almost every fire. Makes s and o much more pleasant, and makes it easier to see.

We do not use Positive pressure "attack", as it has been dubbed, on occasion. All conditions have to be just right for us to use this method. 1. you have to know where the seat of the fire is located, 2. the fire has already vented itself, and you must have all your ducks in a row. We realize that you can burn one down with pp"a", which is why we do not use it on every call. Usually when the initial attack crew makes a hit and they radio for it is when the ppv fan hits the doorway.

Let me rephrase my question: If conditions warrant, do you use ppv on or immediately following initial attack, or do you use it to clear our for s and o, or not at all?

I hope I haven't confused anyone??

Everyone have a joyous Holiday and a Safe and Happy New Year!!

[MrFreeze]

PPV has to be one of the most misunderstood aspects of our job. All it takes is coordination. Like firstdue said, you'll burn 'em down. Well of course you will if the fan is crankin', movin' all that O2, and ya ain't gettin' at it with some water. Just like stand-up, it's all about the timing and delivery...

[SmokeJockey]

We have sops that do not allow us to enter a structure w/o setting up ppv ventilation. Why would you not? First it gets the smoke out, you can see better. Second it gets the heat out. That's COOL by me. However it does create a lot of noise, which is one thing we don't need more of. It also sometimes gets in the way of your attack line going in the door. All in all I would rather have it than not.

[TCFD12]

[quote]Originally posted by HOTDOG:
Let me rephrase my question: If conditions warrant, do you use ppv on or immediately following initial attack, or do you use it to clear our for s and o, or not at all?

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Well, here is my answer to the above question: YES. But, like others have said, not every time, and there are many things that need to fall into place before you do. I personally have used "PPA" and have found that in the correct situation, it can greatly enhance your fire attack. Plus, when done properly, it can provide a safer environment for the crew on attack. I can see how improper use of PPA or PPV can easily help a department "burn one down", notice how I said improper use.

Also, we use PPV for almost everthing from CO problems to smoke from cooking to clearing for salvage and overhaul. Its all about training, we practice using PPV and the tactics of using PPV regularly.

Stay Safe.