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  • #31
    Mike -

    Been to three U2 concerts over the years. I saw them on the "War" tour at the Tower Theatre in Upper Darby, PA. I saw them on the "Actung Baby" tour (I think that one was at the Rectum...I mean Spectrum...or maybe it was the FU Center...I forget). And I saw them on the "Zoo TV" tour.

    AGAIN, they're an amazing bunch of musicians, and I wish I had as much musical talent in my entire body as Bono has in the mole on his left butt cheek. And I think that he writes some thought-provoking songs, and some truly moving ones as well ("Wild Horses" comes to mind...)

    BUT (and this is a big BUT ) -

    Using the names of dead firemen and cops to evoke an emotional response from an American audience is pandering and cheap, and it's not true to the value system that he has consistently expressed, which specifically blames Western civilization, and specifically the United States, for many of the problems of the world. It's a hypocritical and to me stomach-churning USE (and I do mean USE) of the emotion connected to the events of September 11 for self-promotion. Is Bono giving concert money to any of the relief funds? Is he giving away free concert tickets or CDs to people truly affected by the 9/11 attacks? Is he supportive of American efforts to root out and kill the virus of terrorism?

    NO.

    What he does want us to do (and by us, I mean you and me, hard-working and decent working class people who fight for every penny) - is to send our money to everyone else in the world, and not expect any of it back. He wants us to pay for the whims of dictators and finance pie in the sky socialist pipe dreams in Third World countries that need more than anything else a taste of liberty, economic freedom, and an end to tribal warfare - not a new soccer stadium or airport. AND he wants us to disarm, since America, of course, is the original terrorist of the world.

    Do any of these things even remotely sound to you like the values generally held by firefighters, police officers, or any other working class people in the United States? Of course not.

    This is because while Bono does certainly hold some strong political views, he is above all else an opportunist. I've said it before in this forum but I'll say it once more for emphasis - if you want to impress me, shut your mouth for a minute or two and break out the checkbook. How about we get BONO to pay off Third World debt? What's that? It's not his debt to pay, you say? Well, it's not mine either, or yours. I PAY my debts, as I'm sure you do too.
    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

    Joe Black

    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

    Comment


    • #32
      [quote]Originally posted by rob riley:
      P.S. Was Mariah Carey exploiting the situation when she sang for the troops in Kosovo, and strutted around in high heels, and a series of dresses that just got better and better and better?? Or can we give her a pass too????


      Well, I don't know. I'd need more information. To my knowledge, Ms. Carey has not tried to use her fame to make political statements against the United States. Did she, at the concert in Kosovo, display the names of American troops killed in battle?

      [ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: BucksEng91 ]

      "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

      Joe Black

      The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

      Comment


      • #33
        OK Bucks-
        If the world needs a dose of democracy-related freedoms, explain what happened in Argentina?

        And I thought some of the proceeds from the 'Whats Going On' remix-remix went to the 9-11 funds...Or what that just an MTV/VH1 scam?

        And there is such a thing as a liberial-minded firefighter.
        My opinions only.

        AGS-SGA 091101

        Comment


        • #34
          [quote]Originally posted by TruroFAO:
          OK Bucks-
          If the world needs a dose of democracy-related freedoms, explain what happened in Argentina?



          If you think Argentina is a bastion of liberty and market freedoms, you're sadly mistaken. At least they don't have people killing one another's women and children because they come from a different tribe - thank God for small blessings, huh? But I guess a little debt relief, a few soccer stadiums, and a couple of new UN-built airports would have solved everything, right TRURO?

          Your question begs another - what DOES the world need, TRURO? More authoritarianism, more collectivisim, and more wealth redistribution? Gee, they've seemed to work so well for the past 100 years!

          [quote]Originally posted by TruroFAO:
          And I thought some of the proceeds from the 'Whats Going On' remix-remix went to the 9-11 funds...Or what that just an MTV/VH1 scam?


          And your point here is what? That some self-absorbed musicians can take 2-3 hours out of their busy schedules of self-indulgence to record a couple of vocal tracks for a completely inappropriate "memorial" song for 9-11, so they can get on MTV News? Wonderful. Bet it took a real sacrifice for them to do that. At least they haven't yet (as far as I know) used pictures and names of dead fireman for self promotion. But give them time - they probably haven't thought of it yet. U2 is always a bit ahead of the game. The firefighters of FDNY have ALWAYS known "What's Going On". It's just that the liberal elites weren't listening - that was below them until 9/11. Now they all want to be on the bandwagon.

          [quote]Originally posted by TruroFAO:
          And there is such a thing as a liberial-minded firefighter.


          Do they work in liberries? The liberial minded firefighters, I mean...

          I've been around firefighters for thirty years now (my dad was a fireman in Philadelphia), and I have yet to meet any I'd characterize as "liberal". Or even "liberial". Slightly left-leaning, maybe? Some Democratic voters? Sure. But you just don't see many hard-core hard left liberal firefighters...or many in any working-class job, for that matter. The liberal mindset has its biggest support in the 'elites', the chattering classes, academia, the news media, and other groups that are quite far from the reality of an all-hands building fire. The perspective you get from looking death in the face a few times tends to make you think a lot more critically about life in general. And it leads a whole heck of a lot of "real" people to a more conservative, traditional view of things - American values are timeless - that's why we return to them in times of crisis. But like I said, the firefighters of the FDNY never forgot them. Too bad it took 9/11 to get the look-down-your-nose limousine liberal set to notice.
          "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

          Joe Black

          The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

          Comment


          • #35
            TruroFAO

            If the world needs a dose of democracy-related freedoms, explain what happened in Argentina?

            Just some partial stuff, if you really want the meat, do some research.

            The former Argentinian left-wing presidental administration increased the confiscation of workers wages in 1999.

            Then, on December 14, 2001, the same administration began confiscating portions of pension plans (al gore wanted to do this too, a "one time 25% tax but you'll still pay the real tax later" on your pension plan) and forced banks to release treasury bills to help pay nearly $9 million in interest payments.

            To be fair to former Argentinian President Fernando de la Rua, no political party has a monopoly on idiocy and corruption. He was left with some bad baggage and did all the things a liberalist/socialist/comminists would do to make it better which, as always, resulted in making it worse. (Will we ever learn liberalist/socialist/communist economic policies do not work?)

            Other Argentinian problems:

            They tied the Peso one-to one with the dollar in 1991 which screwed them as their main export/import markets have fallen against the dollar.

            Their growth rate halved in 1998 as a result of the Russian default, withdrawing international funds from all of Latin America and high interest rates.

            Their GDP fell 3% in 1999.

            They arranged a new $7.4 billion stand-by facility with the IMF for contingency purposes - almost three times the size of the previous arrangement.

            Domestic capital is leaving the country.

            And they hoped the IMF would bail them out. But the IMF said "nope." The IMF wants Agrentina to balance their budget in 2002. Which isn't a bad thing, but to give you an idea of what that means at this stage of the game in Agrentina, if the US were in thier situation that would mean a $400 billion cut in federal spending AND an average federal tax increase of $2,500 per each family.

            Your confiscated tax dollars are going to pay their debt too.

            And there is such a thing as a liberial-minded firefighter

            Yep, used to be one myself, but I grew out of it.

            And if I may, let me kick your question back to you in a different way...

            At any stage in their (or any country's) history, what would be better for Artgentina than the Republican form of government that you and I live in and that they have?

            Would socialism be better?

            How about communism?
            It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

            Comment


            • #36
              You really oughta calm down, Joe. And you never did answer what happened in Argentina. Put that 'Nova education to use. And who said anything about the UN? Hrm...

              What the entire world needs, sir, is a little more humiliaty and a little less arrogance.

              My POINT, BUCKS, of the question about 'Whats Going On' was a question, which again, you did not answer. I was asking because I didn't know. And just to be clear, DuPris and the rest of them recorded the song before 9-11. I was ASKING if the remixed video was their doing or MTV's. I'd agree with you that most of these musicians, probably all of them, U2 included, don't have the first clue...I'll give you that one. Touche.

              'Liberal' (liberial, too, heh) and 'Conservative' are exhausted and tired terms that media types use to classifly things which are right or left of what the media big wigs' political views are. 'Conservative' doesn't imply extremist klansmen, 'Liberal' doesn't imply WTO rioters. There are even things like conservative Democarats and liberal Republicans. I'd agree that far-leftists have their roots in the places you mentioned, but I'd still argue that there are liberal, and liberial, firefighters in the nation. You know just as much as anyone that a small representation of the bigger picture doesnt anything. The non-presence of liberals in Philly doesnt mean they aren't in existance at all.

              American values are timeless, true, and some of them are very good. Some of them in the past, too, are things I for one would rather forget.

              No firefighter has the right to look down on another, regardless of jurisdiction, and I hope very much it wasn't your implication that because I am a liberal, I looked down on FDNY pre-9/11.

              And for the record: Rudy G- the eletist mayor: a Republican. See- all the parties have members they'd rather not have.

              We butt heads at times- but I wish you safety over the holiday regardless.
              My opinions only.

              AGS-SGA 091101

              Comment


              • #37
                Mongo-

                Good thoughts to ponder, for sure.

                The new protem President of Argentina said that his top priority is creating new jobs and jump-starting the domestic economy. He also made clear to the IMF and other creditors that he intends to suspend loan payments. So he told the World Bank, IMF, and other creditors to stick it. How do you think they'll react? Thought I read that the IMF loan is like 2% of the total debt of Argentina..Wow...

                It's curious to wonder if some other form of government would work. One could look to the old Soviet Union's communist government as compared to it's present democratic counterpart. So, does one want to be poor and free or restricted and wealthy. An age old dilemma for sure.
                My opinions only.

                AGS-SGA 091101

                Comment


                • #38
                  TruroFAO

                  The new protem President of Argentina said that his top priority is creating new jobs and jump-starting the domestic economy.

                  Yep, that's why he suspended (not cancelled) the loan payments.

                  How do you think they'll react?

                  Good question...

                  To be honest, there's not a lot they can do.

                  Argentina is a soverign nation which limits the IMF from coming in and taking over, unless the UN does it for them (here come them silent black helicopters again).

                  The IMF and owed contries, such as the US, could not accept Argentina's deal and, admittedly to over simplify it, give Argentina an bad credit rating. But that does the world market no good as there is $132 billion dollars plus interest on the table that everyone wants their piece of, so it's in everyones best interest to work with Argentina and give them some time.

                  And anyway, how much worse could their credit rating get? Everybody knows they ain't payin'. No nation needs to run a credit check on them.

                  The money guys will be ****ed, some of them will work on plans to help Artgentina. Some of them will work on plans that ensure they themselves profit when (not if) Argentina recovers. Which is OK too, they're taking the risk, they should be ready for both the rewards and the upsets (which a bunch of them got the other day).

                  Some of us will wonder why this is news to us and why it's important enough to pre-empt rosie or oprah. Argentina's default isn't going to affect one country much.

                  And some of us will send money, food, clothing, medicine and such of our own free will to help out some that are struggling in that nation.

                  And then we could also have a big concert like Live Aid - I would really love to hear Neil Youngs version of the commie anthem again. I thought it was awesome!

                  Thought I read that the IMF loan is like 2% of the total debt of Argentina..Wow...

                  I think the IMF loan is close to 15% of Argentina's debt, their IMF credit line was $22 billion.

                  One could look to the old Soviet Union's communist government as compared to it's present democratic counterpart. So, does one want to be poor and free or restricted and wealthy. An age old dilemma for sure.

                  Ah, but the only wealthy in the Soviet Union were the upper members of government and those they chose to be wealthy.

                  And hardly anybody is voting in the commies in Russia so that tells you something.

                  I choose poor and free. That way I am free to stay or make my way out of wherever I am and into a place where I can succeed and move out of poverty.

                  To take this somewhat back on topic, Argentina is roughly $132 billion in debt, how many U2 tickets at $200 each need to be sold to pay this off?

                  How many $1,000,000 donations from limousine liberals (great phrase Bucks) around the world would be needed to pay that off? Besides, according to naderites, they could certainly afford it and don't need more than $100,000 before taxes a year anyway.

                  To be honest, there is probably enough money in the limousine liberal set in the US alone to pay off all of the third world debt worldwide. And don't misunderstand me, I am not advocating they pay this debt off as their money is their money to be used only as they see fit.

                  But!!!

                  For them to wander around and scream that the rest of us hard working Americans aren't doing enough and, then use the names of 344 murdered firefighters (who weren't doing enough) to solicit an emotional response from people that chose to (over)pay their hard earned money to get in to see them, instead of simply saying "we're going to send all profits from this concert to the FDNY Widows and Childrens fund on your behalf for these 344 firefighters families," or even to third world debt relief is hypocracy of the highest order.

                  Yeah, it's not enough that we get up every third day and go to work, not knowing what we'll face on that shift and that it's highly unlikey, but still possible, that another 344 of us will be murdered in the span of 45 minutes, possibly from the hands of some third world country that we bailed out.

                  (Yes, after more thought I am not so convinced that it was a pretty cool thing to do)
                  It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    [quote]Originally posted by TruroFAO:
                    You really oughta calm down, Joe. And you never did answer what happened in Argentina. Put that 'Nova education to use. And who said anything about the UN? Hrm....


                    I'm totally calm. I just have a knack for writing incisively.

                    I would answer you about Argentina with my 'Nova education (class of '89, Poli Sci, summa cum laude, thanks very much ) but Mongo did a magnificent job. I couldn't better it if I went to 'Nova twice.

                    My point about the UN is that it is always the "progressive" answer to poverty. Have the UN come in, build a couple of soccer stadiums, a few cinder-block airports, commission some local art, hold a conference, and everything is OK. Of course, once the construction projects end you're left with a lot of poor people surrounded by cinder block buildings. Check out Tanzania if you really want to see what the UN can do for a country. Now, the free market, coupled with private property rights and civil rights guaranteed by a constitution that limits government? THAT'S the ticket. But that's not what the Bono-types are talking about. They're talking about more confiscation of wages, more socialism, more coercion, and more self-flagellation (since Western civilization is so evil). And more self-promotion, using a tradegy unmatched in the history of the republic in order to appear simpatico with Americans. Disgusting.

                    And I stand by my point that most firefighters, and indeed most working class people actually hold quite conservative values...especially when compared to the reality-impaired self-important snobs in academia and the news media.

                    Thanks, by the way, for not wishing me ill just because I'm a Republican.

                    All I can say is - thank God the system works and we're not stuck worrying about what President Gore is going to f*ck up next.
                    "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                    Joe Black

                    The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      [quote]Originally posted by TruroFAO:
                      It's curious to wonder if some other form of government would work. One could look to the old Soviet Union's communist government as compared to it's present democratic counterpart. So, does one want to be poor and free or restricted and wealthy. An age old dilemma for sure.


                      Ummm...hold on...who exactly was wealthy under the Soviet system, short of the Party elites? Standing in line for two hours for toilet paper is wealthy? Waiting five years to get an apartment, which has no running water....is wealthy?

                      What's your definition of "wealth" here, Truro?
                      "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                      Joe Black

                      The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

                      Comment

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