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  • #16
    JUST ONE WORD HOW TO DESCRIBE HOW I FEEL.... DISGRACEFUL

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    • #17
      I'd like to open a sub-forum for any FDNY members...do you work with any of these women in your station? How is it working?

      [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: bgfdchick ]

      We're all in this together. FDNY 9-11-01

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      • #18
        Careful bgfdchick, you may be opening a whole can of worms with this one. I would hope that regardless of how they felt when these women were first hired, if they have legitimately proven themselves, then the men of FDNY will treat them with at least respect. Since Jake has already let his opinion be known, I predict this one will be shut down very quickly by the web team. I have no problem with an open discussion about challenges a Department faces with integrated staff, but lets not let this turn into a "should a women be in the fire service at all" forum.
        But hey, if it gets too nasty, I got your back!
        IACOJ

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        • #19
          Thanks for your back, Lady. Many of my other posts have been very clear on how I stand about women in the fire service.

          When it comes to the FDNY, I'd like to hear from those who are actually on the department - which I don't think is opening a can of worms. I think their responses are valid to this forum. And if the webteam shuts me down - so be it, at everyone elses loss. We all have our thoughts and fantasies about how FDNY works, feels, and thinks. I personally want to hear it from their own mouths and hearts.

          I don't want people call all women in the FD (FDNY or others) "losers"...and I take offense to Jake's comments, and strongly disagree with them. But I'm certainly not going to fight his opinion on a personal level...I don't think that's what hosting a forum is about.

          [ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: bgfdchick ]

          We're all in this together. FDNY 9-11-01

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          • #20
            I understand where Jake is coming from.But before everyone tears me up hold on.
            How would you like it(male female purple or green)if someone got a position through the courts?Most of the people on FDNY have fought to get where they are.The test for them is one of the toughest.
            SO now I waltz in going look at me I got on the easy way and there is nothing you can do about it.Hows about you ask the guys that tried to get on FDNY in the 80's when they froze the list?And into court it went to be given a political agenda for whatever group felt slighted.Last time class.IF YOU CANT DO THE DAMN JOB DONT APPLY!Its an opinion yes but one that I think every firefighter (male or female green or purple) has.So in a way i can understand him but,there are some women on departments that make up for those that cruise in with the whole attitude I am woman give me a job or I sue.My cousin was one and would cut NO slack for anyone male or female that could not pull their weight.She retired as a Lt in her Dept.Now lets be nice and give this story the much needed send off of"Get over it" Thank you and Happy Holidays.

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            • #21
              [quote]Originally posted by Jake295885:
              This Berkman woman is a lawyer who sued FDNY back in the early 1980's to obtain a job thru the Federal courts. She couldn't pass the test so she stole a position for herself and 39 other losers. She has never been one of us, and has just proven that she never will be.

              I just hope God has mercy on her soul. What she has done is the worst kind of sinfulness.



              Jake: Absolutely 100% right.

              Chick: "...do you work with any of these women in your station? How is it working?"
              Don't ask. For one thing, you won't find many FDNY members willing to air their dirty laundry or bash one of their own in public.
              "Go ugly early."

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              • #22
                The WTC situation is not and never was a male/female issue. It never should have become one in the media or anywhere else. WTC should be unifying us, not dividing.

                As for people like Jake and SquadHog, you lend credence to "Ignorance is Bliss".
                Susan Lounsbury
                Winston-Salem Rescue Squad
                Griffith Volunteer FD

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                • #23
                  NCRSQ751:
                  "The WTC situation is not and never was a male/female issue."
                  >> ...uh huh...

                  "It never should have become one in the media or anywhere else."
                  >> You're contradicting yourself. If it "is not and never was" an issue, how did it "become one"? Of course, the answer is Brenda Berkman made it one.

                  "WTC should be unifying us, not dividing."
                  >> Yes, that's the whole point and it's really all that needs to be said. so let's leave it at that, shall we? Have a good one.

                  [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: SquadHog ]

                  "Go ugly early."

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                  • #24
                    Sorry, duplicate post.

                    [ 12-10-2001: Message edited by: SquadHog ]

                    "Go ugly early."

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                    • #25
                      As a father of two daughters, a husband of a professional in a male dominate industry, and try hard to be opened minded professional fire and army reserve officer, I aspire for a society, fire service, military, ect. that the only assests judged is what the person brings to the collective table, not what they are or aren't by the choice of God. I understand as much as a white male can understand living in a multicultured/multigendered family, the barriers that can and do exist. Yet I do not understand or see the benefit in gaining opportunity and access into a group, profession, ect., then once in the group self segregating perhaps rekindling the prejudices and emotions worked so hard to overcome. If you are a firefighter you are a firefighter, you pass the same test, meet the same standards, and are part of the same family. Splintering/identifying as white, black, asian, hispanic, female, male,ect firefighters is self defeating and eroding to bond that all firefighters share, the commitment that all firefighters have to each other. All bring different baggage to the table, our differences makes us individuals, our commitment and dedication to each other makes us a united family. Let's focus and what we all are and not what we/some are and we/some aren't.

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                      • #26
                        Look, if a female applies to the fire department, legitimately passes the test, passes the academy with acceptable scores (not weighted for her gender), and proves herself on the fireground, then by God she's a firefighter.

                        If any of the above is not true, she's a danger to the public and to her fellow firefighters. That would go equally for male firefighters, but we all know that (rightfully) if a male fails at any point along the way, he's gone, as he should be. We're not playing games here. If you can legitimately make it, more power to you. If not, don't use the legal system to force an outcome that endangers other firefighters and expect to be welcomed with open arms. It's really that simple.
                        "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

                        Joe Black

                        The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

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                        • #27
                          As a firefighter who used to work in TV news (an NBC affiliate in NY) I can tell you the real reason for doing the stories the way they were done. If you take a story (ex. how brave and wonderful firefighters are) and run it over and over and over nobody will be watching your news program. But if you run a story about how this firefighter sacrificed and this firefighter survived and the new firefighters being promoted and the female firefighters and the firefighters memorials and so on and so on and so on you keep the stories fresh and people keep watching and firefighters are kept in the forefront where we belong. It is only a tactic to change the same story and keep it seeming new. It is not a specific spotlight on female firefighters per say, just a new angle on the continuing story of FDNY.
                          "What makes a person run into a building others are running out of?...Character."- Dennis Smith

                          www.elmirafire.org

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                          • #28
                            I couldn't agree with you more, Tillerman-6. It's similar with the police -- you rarely hear anything good about them -- it's all negative, who shot who in the back, etc...
                            "When I was young, my ambition was to be one of the people who made a difference in this world. My hope is to leave the world a little better for my having been there."
                            -- Jim Henson (1936 - 1990)

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                            • #29
                              Hey Mongo I hear 48 Hours will be down to do a show on 5'11" 215# male Texans. Can we expect to see you?

                              Duffer you struck a couple of nerves with me, especially as the father of biracial kids of both genders (there's only two genders, right? ....... especially the whole forced-integration-followed-by-self-segregation thing.

                              We used to be required to attend cultural awareness classes in the county where I work. The instructors were a "cross section" of everyone (except white males that is). They would preach the need for other races to play catch-up, and too bad if more deserving white males were left behind. Now here's the funny part: All the student firefighters & officers (of ALL types) would gang up on the instructors and point out that the only fair way to hire is to give a fair test, and hire from the top score down. this got to be so out of hand that the classes had to be stopped. That one really backfired

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                              • #30
                                Having been one of the people who was shut out of FDNY in the early 80's by Lt Berkman Esq. I find it very ironic that her name is once again prominent in the media. I was one of the people that had to work long and hard to pass the written and pphysical agility tests with a high enough grade to be considered. 20.000 people would take the exam and there aren't enough positions to go around. A score of 100% isnt always enough to make it. When Berkman decided that it wasnt fair and went off to the courts many applicants were left in the lurch. My score was 99.5%. Maybe it wouldnt have been good enough but I never had the chance. And that was all I was asking for. The same even chance as anyone who picked up a pencil on that Saturday morning or put on the weighted vest and did the most physically challenging thing that I had ever attempted in my life at the NY Coliseum. I prepped and studied and ran and worked out. I was satisfied that i gave my best effort possible to get my life dream. To be on the job with my father would have been a dream come true. While the test was being challenged I became over the age limit that was in effect at the time. Well here it is years later. I am an officer in my local volunteer department. I am a firefighter as I always wanted to be. I was at one of the first funerals for one of the FDNY brothers held in Lindenhurst. I was speaking with a female FDNY Lt. for several minutes. Nice woman, very personable. But her diminutive stature made me wonder if she could have been much help to me at a scene if I were in need of rescue. After our conversation we went our seperate ways and my Chief came up to me and said "I guess you finally made up with her." I didnt know what he was talking about. He told me that I was speaking with the one and only Lt. Brenda Berkman FDNY. I was shocked. And being amongst several thousand other brothers and sisters I didnt see her again that day. I would have liked to ask the questions I had those years ago. Especially WHY? Now seeing her on the news doesnt surprise me so much. A person who has agendas will always find another. I am proud that most FDNY personnel are more concerned with bringing home every brother that is still missing instead of being recognised and praised.

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