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FDNY and the Vindicator

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  • E40FDNYL35
    replied
    Kirk I was there when you guys did the testing at the ROCK. I still say The Vindicator has a place in FDNY. It is ashame all the chiefs there that day are gone....

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  • KirkAllen
    replied
    FDNYRR: Sweetheart Contracts and politics? Not sure what you mean by that but you can rest assured I do not play those cards. Never have and never will.

    You are correct that FDNY has probably tested and rejected 65% of what someone out there conisders a bolt from the blue but I bet I can safely say they have NEVER evaluated a nozzle for over two years of which it still has not been rejected.

    Now I will probably get kicked of the forums for that comment but there comes a time when a man has to do what a man has to do

    Leave a comment:


  • FDNYRR
    replied
    In a kind of lighter sense, what works for FDNY may not be for you! Remember this folks, in Major Cities, there's a lot of sweetheart contracts and politics used. This is not to say the Vindicator isn't worth it's weight......only for each to test and decide their own! In the FDNY we've probably tested and rejected 65% of what someone out there considers a bolt from the blue, by the same token we were operating with manual roll-up boosters until almost the eighties.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefReason
    replied
    Just a flicker!

    KirkAllen:
    Somehow, I don't think you will get a response from TSFIRE. In one of his last posts, he alluded to the tactics that were being used; something that Captain Gonzo hit on the head early on.
    By the way and just curious: how many of the Vindicators have been sold to the military? How many copycat nozzles are now being offered? Has anyone told you lately how sweet smooth that ball valve is?
    Anyone who trashes this nozzle is somewhere between Goofy and Pluto.

    Leave a comment:


  • KirkAllen
    replied
    TSFIREDOG09:
    I have spoken directly with Houston Safety 3 as well as Captain Reed who was doing all the Vindicator training, which unfortunatly was cancelled when the old training chief over spent the budget for traing. Neither of them know of an instance where a person has been burned while using it inside. The only case they knew of, which is one I am very familier with is when a person got a steam burn from not wearing a hood which they confirmed had nothing to do with the nozzles performance. That was a year before they made their purchase. I guess those in charge found that it was not the nozzle that caused the problem.

    Now if you wish to continue to claim someone has been injured by our product I think it would be wise and benificial for everyone if you would please provide me with their name so that we can follow up with a indipendant safety investigation to confirm the facts.

    To date, not a SINGLE department has every had the problems you claim to be having with this product. I know from my own experience we have tried to do everything wrong possible and even then the fire goes out and we have never had a single injury report.

    I would appreciate your input as we all know that if there is truly a problem as you describe we need to address it.

    Awaiting you cooperation to ensure all stay safe!

    Thank You.

    Leave a comment:


  • tshayes
    replied
    Hey guys and girls. I just got back from a streams class and demonstartion on every different type of handline. The bottom line is that the smooth bore beats all other nozzles like the combo fixed gallonage nozzles and all other like the tft. This guy was from akron brass and has been in the fire service for 14-16 years. Everything we have said bad about the combo fog nozzles he agreeded with. We also did the ultimate test. Two lines one tft running 185 gallons perminute using calculations and a slide rule plus a inline hose pressure gauge and the same setup with a smoothbore 15/16 nozzle and one size larger. Everyone knows that a smoothbore is easier to handle because of less back pressure but with the smooth bore and 4 90 degree kinds it still flowed 145 gallons perminute where as the combo nozzle flowed only 80-90 gallons perminute. Yes that stream still looked good but does the look of the stream really matter if you arnt flowing the water needed to put the fire out. I believe in the vindicator now if it can do what it claims it can. I found out today on how you are able to hold with two people a 2.5" line flowing 430 gallons perminute in a house or on surround and drown operations. All this B/S about venting capabilities with the fog. Wooptydo. Tell me do you guys not carry ladders and fans for that purpose. Take two guys and through a ladder with a fan if you need ventialtion. Also the smoothbore makes less steam which we all know that steam is the firefighters worst knightmare. Any other questions please feel free to email me [email protected]. Or just want to chat.

    Leave a comment:


  • tshayes
    replied
    This may cause turbulence but does anyone think that pulling two 2.5" lines for a fully involved front end of a car is over kill yes or no. I know this is the wrong forum but any help would be great.

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Gonzo
    replied
    Chief Reason...

    You beat me to it! One of the first things we were taught at the Academy was the way that any comination nozzle on a fog pattern will pull air in behind it..and to make damn sure that you had the fire knocked down before power venting, as to prevent a little "surprise" from burning one's butt!

    Improper use of any combination nozzle, especially using a fog pattern to create the "Lloyd Layman" effect will upset the thermal balance, steaming anyone in it's path...that's why we were taught that you never attack a fire with a fog pattern if there is anyone still inside!

    FYI: we carry combo nozzles on our 1.75" and 2" attack lines. Our deuce and a halfs have a smooth bore.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefReason
    replied
    Jeez; here we go again!

    TSFIRE:
    With all due respect, you are trashing this nozzle with inaccuracies.
    If this nozzle is pulling heat and smoke to you, and it's burning your arms and hands, then what kind of crap are you wearing for turnouts and gloves?
    I know all about those little holes; it's an air aspirated nozzle. Since you know so much about fog, have you ever put your face down by the nozzle flowing fog? IT PULLS AIR! As for venting with a fog nozzle; it keeps it cool for the guys until the fan arrives. And if it's such a bad nozzle, why is almost every nozzle manufacturer now making and selling different versions of air aspirated nozzles?
    If this nozzle is doing what you say, then why hasn't there been a NIOSH inquiry or a request by your attorney general? I would say because your claim is simply not true. We have been using the Vindicator for several years with great success and without incident. My guys trust their lives to this nozzle on interior attacks.
    If this nozzle is causing your people burns then I suppose that thermal imaging cameras are causing blindness.
    I'm out on this one. Be careful what you say about products. The manufacturer just might contact you to back your statement with proof.
    As far as that crack I made about Pierce vs. E-One; lucky guess on my part.
    Regardless what you use, please stay safe.
    IACOJ-Board of Directors

    Leave a comment:


  • tshayes
    replied
    TSFIREDOG09 What type of gear do you use so we can maybe look to getting some when our next order comes up. I am curius. Any info woul;d be great.

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefReason
    replied
    KEA; he's trashin' your nozzle!

    Captain Gonzo:
    WELL SAID!!!
    My personal favorite is "They seem to pull a large amount of heat and smoke down onto the nozzleman and have caused a number of burns if used in a hot environment".
    Normally, I don't engage "big city" firefighters. After all, I know little about high rise tactics; they do 24 on, slide down a brass pole, wear class A uniforms and talk in a language all their own.
    But on this one, giddy up go.
    Let's see; heat + smoke = hot environment. Could a "number of burns" been caused by the hot environment? Just how does a nozzle cause burns and don't you suppose that a hot environment would be a good place to use a nozzle, a hose and some water?
    I don't mind you saying stupid crap because your buddy didn't get the nozzle deal at Houston, but you have infected people who might otherwise be willing to try one of the most innovative pieces of fire appliance to come along in quite a while. You obviously missed the feature article in FIRE RESCUE about this particular nozzle.
    Oh, that's right; you don't care. Your buddy Larry didn't get the deal.
    And for the record, when we're not using our nozzles, we keep them in a compartment. See, that's not just a "big city" thing.
    In the future, limit yourself to things you know something about.
    Your logic would indicate that if your squad got a Pierce instead of an E-One, it would stay at the station. It would make perfect sense in your case.
    IMACOJ

    Leave a comment:


  • Captain Gonzo
    replied
    Originally posted by TSFIREDOG09
    We have the vindicator here in Houston and most of them are carried in a compartment. They seem pull a large amount of heat and smoke down onto the nozzleman and have caused a number of burns if used in a hot enviroment. in my opinion it might make a good paper weight but it is useless on a offensive fire. I would rather use a smooth bore and get close to the same water with less nozzle reaction. Just like every other department there are officers here to that love this poor excuse for a nozzle but I would rather just get in hit it with a power cone from a fog or use a smooth bore and then go home.
    It's not the nozzle...someone has to be on the end of the line to operate it!

    Leave a comment:


  • ChiefReason
    replied
    Power cone on a fog?

    TSFIRE:
    Your argument doesn't make any sense. Pulling heat and smoke down? You're describing a smoke ejector; not what this nozzle can do.
    Have you ever put the "power cone on a fog" at a window and watched it draw out heat and smoke? Yet, you would use this to knock down a fire? I'm a little confused here.
    We use straight bore, combies and the Vindicators. You see, we recognize that "one nozzle doesn't fit all". We are open minded and don't attach our feelings and comments to the person or company selling products. If it's a good product and they are willing to let us try it before we buy it, then great.
    I have a real nice paperweight on my desk. We'll keep the Vindicators on our trucks and use when appropriate.
    Oh and while we are discussing tactics, let's talk about fog patterns.
    We NEVER use them on interior attacks as it scalds the firefighters. We will use them to vent a room out through a window. The only other time we use it is for protection when shutting down an anhydrous ammonia leak.
    Have a good one and a safe one, TS. That goes for everyone.

    Leave a comment:


  • tshayes
    replied
    Good point and yes we do have hydrants in town but we run mutual aid and have 75% of our house and commercial structures where we have to run water to them. Some of the times it is almost impossible due to time of day, location, space confinement and other things to have a large enough tanker shuttle. Almost all of our departments are around us are volunteer that run mutual aid to us. I have been in for 2 years and am attending college for my fire science degree and then going on to my paramedic school degree. I am also 18. Study about this stuff alot and hope to be in the real thjing eventually. I have seen alot of fires around us where they are able to use a large amount of water but even if they calles all of there mutual aid tankers it is still almost impossible. We have a 95' sutphen tower for your info and we have 2 tankers 2 pumpers 1 multipurpose pumper grass truck heavy rescue amd a mini rescue. Any other info needed just say the word and I'll be there. How about some info about you guys. I am trying to learn all I can even though I know books don't make up for live training. I like talking to all of the old crusty's. They know stuff I can never learn but hope to.

    Leave a comment:


  • ADSNWFLD
    replied
    Flow puts out fires, and the Vindicator puts out plenty. If you don't have the proper flow you will use more water then if you have a higher flow.
    If a building fire needs a flow of 200 gpm to extinguish and you are putting 150 gpm on it the fire will not go out, and you will go through your tank, and burn down the house.
    If you hit the same fire with 200 gpm the fire will go out. The more water, after that, you put on the fire the faster it will go out.

    Leave a comment:

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