Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

FDNY and the Vindicator

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Let me start off by saying that the Big Paulie high flow handline nozzle is a name that was given to a new handline concept. It can be put together with parts that are sold by several companies. The BP is capable of 800 gpm flows from a 200' 3" handline however I recomend no more then 600 gpm. The nozzle consists of 4 parts. A nozzle valve with at least a 1-1/2" waterway(bigger is better. 1-3/4" or 2" works best. You can even use a 2-/2" inline gate valve most commonly used on a hydrant.)A stream shaper (10" works best. A nozzle capable of the required flows. Smooth bore or combination. I like the 1-1/2" smooth bore best. At 80 psi NP I can get 600gpm. At 60 NP I can get 518 gpm. How about the Vindicator master stream nozzle? I think it can be adapted to this concept. Finally ther is a stream directing handle that is placed between the shaper and the tip to help in manuvering the stream. This is a two person line and is placed into service by sitting on it. No loop is required. It kicks butt.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    800 GPM handline, have 3 guys sit on it..well actually Paulie seemed to imply that the 600GPM handline was about as big as you should go when he spoke to us in 1999 at First Due in Las Vegas. His video that you can buy will show you this. You can get it from him [email protected] or from FSP at www.fire-police-ems.com

    ------------------
    The information presented herin is simply my opinion and does not represent the opinion or view of my employer(s) or any department/agency to which I belong.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Every body does the job every single day.

    Great, well all of that explains all the other questions asked just fine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    How do you plan for a forklift hitting a sprinkler head?

    Who will come out at 9PM Christmas eve to fix a fire pump? ... Forget Christmas eve, who comes out at 9PM saturday night... The system stays down until Monday morning.

    Detectors go bad, physical damage puts pull stations OOS, It happens everywhere. Don't BS people into thinking that if you have a sprinkler and an alarm system nothing bad can happen in your district.

    "systems overlap"? are you saying that more than one riser feeds the same area? That would be neat. The rest of the country has a hard enough time convincing property owners to put a system in, I can't imagine what they would say if you asked them to put two in.

    "use exterior streams." please teach us how to get an exterior stream to the 15th floor.

    Back to the 800 GPM handline, tell me where I can read about it. Or tell me yourself. If you can SAFELY put a 800 GPM handline in operation in a firebuilding we would like to know how. That would be the biggest inovation since the fire engine. Don't keep it a secret!!

    "They've rarely been the leaders at anything" How about the enclosed crew cab FDNY had five Mack R model 4 door cabs delivered in 1969 and soon after all engines and sticks were purchased with 4 door cabs.

    The Rescue Co's of FDNY had thermal imaging cameras years before most people ever heard of a TIC.

    Say what you want but the FDNY does the job every single day.


    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    But, it's fun to watch him get cranked up!

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    ADSN/WFLD: Dont waste your energy!
    I think most of us know where your coming from.

    Kirk

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    //buildings fire pump can't break? Sprinkler systems are never down for repairs or maint.?

    Everythig is constantly tested, shutdowns are planned, systems overlap. If needed a fire watch is posted.

    ///but you have to plan for the worst case senerio. ,,,you would need approx 6,600 GPM. //

    So what is your solution to do what you suggest? The worst case is 6600 gpm, the building height is 45 stories, How many guys, what size lines, how long will it take? What is FDNY's solution? LAFD and Philly got their tail kicked so what FD on earth can do this?

    You tell us we have to plan for the worst case situtation then say//I don't know anyone that can get that flow on the 15th floor of a building. // So what is the point?

    //You need that "OLD FASHONED FIREFIGHTING" for the day Murphy pays you a visit.

    Normally, a burnout results when you get behind, Philly, LA, FDNY. In other words it burns down to your size or runs out of fuel. So the plan might be to get out of the way, not kill anyone and use exterior streams.

    ///Somehow I doubt that the LVFD forgot the lessons learned from the MGM fire. //

    And what would those be? Please tell us.

    800 foot 2 1/2" lines?

    Sprinklers are important?

    Doesn't matter how close a fire station is?

    5000 victims need lots of room?

    What size attack line do you pull on a 1.2 million sq ft fire?

    You can never have enough air bottles?

    You should be able to talk to your neighbors on the radio.

    I don't suppose you were there were you?

    //800 gpm handline nozzle?//

    The big paulie tip, even folks in Indiana, Washington, Virgina and Texas know of it It has been published over and over for years in the trades.

    //if you could get there before it gets big//

    Well, if you could get there soon enough a pressurized water extinguisher would be the weapon of choice. Hmm, a 400 gpm tip beats a 600 gpm tip? You'd go with 50 psi over a 100 psi tip when reach is essential? No, Paul has the right idea if you have to go big go really big. Odds are he never wil in a casino. If the system takes a crap, it will most likelly be gone on arrival. History supports that.

    Dang, get their before it gets big, what do you figure 3 minute ride, 10 minute climb up the stairs and you'll stop the fire eh? Obviously in a state where everything has electronic detection, follows the latest codes, rarely gives variances, and is fully sprinkled, LVFD will get there before the normal FD. When they get there, there oldest fire engine will be a 2000 model.

    //but access roads ran behind and along the sides of most casinos. //

    that's right and the building foot print is 1600 by 1600, what length and size line do you pull?

    //Many departments only use 1.75" hose for highrise packs, //

    As long as we are talking about FDNY, use of 1 3/4 inch lines not following their own sops which require 250 gpm 2 1/2's was a contributing factor to four recent firefighter deaths.

    //If the busiest fire department in the world started using the Vindicator would you consider using it?//

    They've rarely been the leaders at anything. Just now they are thinking about equipping their rigs with imagers, we did than in the 80's. They just recently thought firefighters should have more than a first aid card. We made tht decision in the 70's.

    Other norms of the progressive fire service they don't use include:

    Large diameter hose, only ahandful of their rigs have it.

    Use of forward lays and preconnects.

    Extrication equipment on engines.

    Class A foam.

    1250, 1500 or larger pumps they use 1000's.


    They get to use all there fire equipment alot because the years of neglect on codes and an old housing stock and continued reluctance to retrofit old structures(politics). Unfortunately, years of not doing the right thing with codes has cost lots of firefighter lives. Most comparisons to FDNY anywhere else in the US are apples to oranges.

    No I don't think I'd copy FDNY. They use 2 1/2" lines with 1 1/8" tips. Probably, the most cost effective solution is to provide them with 1 1/4" tips to use on their existing nozzles assuming they cannot put out fire with what they are using today. Oh, by the way they came to te conclusion of higher flows in 1968 went there and now they are back to lower flows.

    Oh, but of course I'm not trying to sell someone a nozzle.




    [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited November 02, 2000).]

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    And I said if you could put a hit on it BEFORE it takes the entire floor.

    Many departments only use 1.75" hose for highrise packs, others have moved up to 2.5" lines flowing 250 to 300 gpm. The 400 + GPM @ 50 psi could help out greatly in those marginal situations.

    Please share with us how a handline SAFELY flows 800 GPM, (you said Vegas does).

    I haven't been to Vegas in a few years but from what I remember the casinos were set back quite far from the streets, but access roads ran behind and along the sides of most casinos.

    Somehow I doubt that the LVFD forgot the lessons learned from the MGM fire.

    If anyone from Vegas is out there give us some insight on this.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    I said makes nozzles pretty much useless.

    Yes sprinklers have just about eliminated big fires, as have great codes, automatic notification systems, constant monitoring with cameras.

    But heck you must be right, Wanna pull an 1800 foot line? That is the mid point of the MGM. You still going to flow 400 gpm? How long is that going to take? How many guys? It isn't an issue of one sprinkler or pump system, every complex has multiple systems backed by elevated storage and a fire department. Anything can happen but normally doesn't. Plus look at the alternative you are suggesting, 1000 foot lines.

    The numbers don't support you on this. It is kinda like how much you wanna spend on Weapons of mass destruction versus use.

    Gosh I love your math...you suggest a 400 gpm hand line, the department runs 350 gpm to 800 gpm handlines...some how your 400 puts out the 6600 gpm number you profess? Excuse me?

    Oh our 100 by 200 space we cn certainly go 500 by 1200. No one city on earth has more hotel rooms than Las Vegas, so maybe you should follow us.

    Oh, in this case LVFD has a better idea, but with bigpauly down there he'll look at anything, as he should. I doubt many people know more about big water.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Larry, so your telling me that a buildings fire pump can't break? Sprinkler systems are never down for repairs or maint.?

    Sprinklers are great, I don't think anyone can argue that point, but you have to plan for the worst case senerio. In many highrise buildings you can have a 100' X 200' floor space. (for those of you keeping score that's 20,000 sqft) You would need the biggest flow possible to attack that fire because if all 20,000 sqft was involved you would need approx 6,600 GPM. (using the NFA formula).

    I don't know anyone that can get that flow on the 15th floor of a building. If you could put a hit on it before it took the floor. You could certainly turn a day long fight into a couple hours.

    You need that "OLD FASHONED FIREFIGHTING" for the day Murphy pays you a visit.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Houston has had the vindicators on all our engines for 2 years now. It's amazing to know how much you have on the line when you are working it. 400 with one man (not a small one) is totally believable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    ///Big Paulie, has your department evaluated the Vindicator. You say that an automatic nozzle is Vagas' weapon of choice, I would think with your large hotels and casinos you would want to flow as much water as possible.///

    That is old fashioned firefighting. Sprinkling every casino and hotel in the state like Nevada did pretty much makes nozzles useless in high flow situations in those occupancies.

    //but the Houston Fire Department is the third largest fire department in the country and we already use the Vindicator. //

    And every other nozzle on the planet. It varies company to company in Houston.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Thanx KEA, I understand your restrictions. I did e-mail you last night.
    See Ya Paulie

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Paul: As you know I am restricted from what I can say regarding our product. I will be brief. If you need more information please e-mail your questions. Thanks

    1. What is the outlet size of the vindicator used in the 2-1/2" flow test?

    The outlet size is 3" however this is not the orifice that determines the flow rate.

    2. What was the nozzle pressure in the 2-1/2" flow test?

    Inlet NP was (Backpressure) was approximatly 60-psi with an outlet pressure of 40-psi with a flow of 420-gpm.

    3. If I was able to match the outlet size of the vindicator with a same sdize smooth bore would I see the same results in flow and nozzle pressure? If not why?

    As you know flow and pressure are determined by orifice size. Thats physics! Although you may be able to match a given flow & pressure with a single smooth bore, you would have to use several different tips to match the flow "range" from low flow to high flow.

    Sorry for being so brief. As I said, if you need more information please e-mail me.

    Thanks


    ------------------
    Kirk Allen
    First Strike Technologies, Inc

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    My parachute is open and I want to learn.
    1. What is the outlet size of the vindicator used in the 2-1/2" flow test?
    2. What was the nozzle pressure in the 2-1/2" flow test?
    3. If I was able to match the outlet size of the vindicator with a same sdize smooth bore would I see the same results in flow and nozzle pressure? If not why?

    When will there be a vindicator demo on the west coast I would like to finally attend.

    Leave a comment:

300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

Collapse

Upper 300x250

Collapse

Taboola

Collapse

Leader

Collapse
Working...
X