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FDNY and the Vindicator

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  • #16
    "Also the thing the vindicator is threaded to is a pressure gauge not a smooth bore tip."

    OK if you want to get technical.

    The vindicator is attached to a pressure gauge which is attached to a smoothbore tip with a gate valve on a 2-1/2" line (we don't get to see the line). (Actually it looks like a "butterfly" handled smoothbore nozzle for a 2-1/2" line, but either way the water goes through it before it gets to the vindicator.)

    "If your using 2.5" hose we have found that the line kinks often."

    We haven't had this problem.

    "We experimented with larger tips on a three inch line and found the higher flows very hard to handle."

    What were you trying to do with the line? We don't have any trouble. Even our "lightweights" can handle it.

    "I've never tried the Blitz Attack nozzle on a 3" line."

    Don't take my word for it, give it a try if you've got the hose laying around. We use a Big Paulie with a set of 1-1/8" and 1-1/2" stacks on it on both the 2-1/2" and the 3".

    And throw the tradition of 80psi on the tip out the window and see for yourself how good the stream can be at higher flows.

    Comment


    • #17
      I have been on a 3" line with a Blitz Attack nozzle it was very impresive it took 3 of us to hold the line but we were flowing over 470 gpm (flow meter was inline).

      Comment


      • #18
        Perhaps I'm just splitting hairs but looking at the picture from left to right.

        2.5" hose (just outside of picture), Playpipe with shutoff (elkhart B-278 or equivalent) inline pressure gauge with 1.5" threads, then the Vindicator Blitz attack line.

        You wouldn't want a smoothbore tip before the vindicator because it would restrict the flow going into the vindicator.

        What are we doing with the bigger lines we tried? Interior attack, We have a 200' preconnected 2.5" line with an Akron model 1727 tip on it. We have used it successfully on many well involved structures, including one good attic fire in a large house 2500 to 3000 sqft open space. Now that we have a vindicator, we can use the smaller line to achive the same or better flows.

        The Vindicator Blitz Attack will give us the opportunity to make a hit on some fires that would have been considered marginal with a single handline.

        [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited October 30, 2000).]

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        • #19
          Oh, just so you know. I don't sell the Vindicator, or any other fire equipment.

          I was always a staunch supporter of the smooth bore for both 1.75" and 2.5" lines. After working with the vindicator I've seen the benefit of this nozzle. It's not an end all be all, but for a good working structure fire it's a very good tool.

          On a master stream I'd still go with a smooth bore.

          [This message has been edited by ADSN/WFLD (edited October 30, 2000).]

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          • #20
            WOW! I never imagined so much contraversy could come from a simple nozzle demonstration.

            For the record!
            The FDNY does not currently use the Vindicator nozzle, nor was the demonstration done as a comparison of ANY size or type nozzle as some have tried to imply.

            The 49th Battalion Chief Jerry Tracy posted 3 photos out of probably 10-15 that he took during the demonstration. After meeting him, I'm confident that he is fully capable of evaluating products with an open mind and would agree that the demonstratoin was just that, a demonstration showing potential of a product.

            The R&D division of FDNY is also fully capable of evaluating products of any type and I'm sure they are smart enough to do a Apples to Apples comparison.

            The Smooth Bore photo posted was to simply show a stream being pitoted. The flowmeter photo simply shows that a flow meter was used. They are not representative of any particular test!

            The last photo simply shows the Vindicator flowing water. The caption discusses the flow from this line.

            ADSN/WFLD: You are correct in the fact that the nozzle is being supplied by a 2 1/2" line attached to an Elkhart Brass Playpipe with a pressure gauge installed at the exit of the play pipe followed by a Vindicator Blitz Attack.

            What the nozzle is attached to is irrelevant as long as the "ID" is 1 3/8" minimum.

            STATION2: Thanks for your comments. You and your brothers were instrumental in proving what we found in our testing.

            The mind is like a parachute!
            It works best when its Open!

            Take care and stay safe!



            ------------------
            Kirk Allen
            First Strike Technologies, Inc

            Comment


            • #21
              I have not expierienced the kinking problem with the 1-1/2" tip at 40 psi NP. This does bring up a couple of questions. What was the nozzle pressure of the vindcator 2-1/2" flow test. What is the outlet size of the vindicator. Can there be kinking problems using the vindicator at the low nozzle pressures. Finally if it is possible to match the outlet size of the vindicator with a smooth bore tip will I see the same results. If not why? My parachute is open and I do want to learn.

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              • #22
                My parachute is open and I want to learn.
                1. What is the outlet size of the vindicator used in the 2-1/2" flow test?
                2. What was the nozzle pressure in the 2-1/2" flow test?
                3. If I was able to match the outlet size of the vindicator with a same sdize smooth bore would I see the same results in flow and nozzle pressure? If not why?

                When will there be a vindicator demo on the west coast I would like to finally attend.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Paul: As you know I am restricted from what I can say regarding our product. I will be brief. If you need more information please e-mail your questions. Thanks

                  1. What is the outlet size of the vindicator used in the 2-1/2" flow test?

                  The outlet size is 3" however this is not the orifice that determines the flow rate.

                  2. What was the nozzle pressure in the 2-1/2" flow test?

                  Inlet NP was (Backpressure) was approximatly 60-psi with an outlet pressure of 40-psi with a flow of 420-gpm.

                  3. If I was able to match the outlet size of the vindicator with a same sdize smooth bore would I see the same results in flow and nozzle pressure? If not why?

                  As you know flow and pressure are determined by orifice size. Thats physics! Although you may be able to match a given flow & pressure with a single smooth bore, you would have to use several different tips to match the flow "range" from low flow to high flow.

                  Sorry for being so brief. As I said, if you need more information please e-mail me.

                  Thanks


                  ------------------
                  Kirk Allen
                  First Strike Technologies, Inc

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Thanx KEA, I understand your restrictions. I did e-mail you last night.
                    See Ya Paulie

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      ///Big Paulie, has your department evaluated the Vindicator. You say that an automatic nozzle is Vagas' weapon of choice, I would think with your large hotels and casinos you would want to flow as much water as possible.///

                      That is old fashioned firefighting. Sprinkling every casino and hotel in the state like Nevada did pretty much makes nozzles useless in high flow situations in those occupancies.

                      //but the Houston Fire Department is the third largest fire department in the country and we already use the Vindicator. //

                      And every other nozzle on the planet. It varies company to company in Houston.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Houston has had the vindicators on all our engines for 2 years now. It's amazing to know how much you have on the line when you are working it. 400 with one man (not a small one) is totally believable.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Larry, so your telling me that a buildings fire pump can't break? Sprinkler systems are never down for repairs or maint.?

                          Sprinklers are great, I don't think anyone can argue that point, but you have to plan for the worst case senerio. In many highrise buildings you can have a 100' X 200' floor space. (for those of you keeping score that's 20,000 sqft) You would need the biggest flow possible to attack that fire because if all 20,000 sqft was involved you would need approx 6,600 GPM. (using the NFA formula).

                          I don't know anyone that can get that flow on the 15th floor of a building. If you could put a hit on it before it took the floor. You could certainly turn a day long fight into a couple hours.

                          You need that "OLD FASHONED FIREFIGHTING" for the day Murphy pays you a visit.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I said makes nozzles pretty much useless.

                            Yes sprinklers have just about eliminated big fires, as have great codes, automatic notification systems, constant monitoring with cameras.

                            But heck you must be right, Wanna pull an 1800 foot line? That is the mid point of the MGM. You still going to flow 400 gpm? How long is that going to take? How many guys? It isn't an issue of one sprinkler or pump system, every complex has multiple systems backed by elevated storage and a fire department. Anything can happen but normally doesn't. Plus look at the alternative you are suggesting, 1000 foot lines.

                            The numbers don't support you on this. It is kinda like how much you wanna spend on Weapons of mass destruction versus use.

                            Gosh I love your math...you suggest a 400 gpm hand line, the department runs 350 gpm to 800 gpm handlines...some how your 400 puts out the 6600 gpm number you profess? Excuse me?

                            Oh our 100 by 200 space we cn certainly go 500 by 1200. No one city on earth has more hotel rooms than Las Vegas, so maybe you should follow us.

                            Oh, in this case LVFD has a better idea, but with bigpauly down there he'll look at anything, as he should. I doubt many people know more about big water.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              And I said if you could put a hit on it BEFORE it takes the entire floor.

                              Many departments only use 1.75" hose for highrise packs, others have moved up to 2.5" lines flowing 250 to 300 gpm. The 400 + GPM @ 50 psi could help out greatly in those marginal situations.

                              Please share with us how a handline SAFELY flows 800 GPM, (you said Vegas does).

                              I haven't been to Vegas in a few years but from what I remember the casinos were set back quite far from the streets, but access roads ran behind and along the sides of most casinos.

                              Somehow I doubt that the LVFD forgot the lessons learned from the MGM fire.

                              If anyone from Vegas is out there give us some insight on this.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                //buildings fire pump can't break? Sprinkler systems are never down for repairs or maint.?

                                Everythig is constantly tested, shutdowns are planned, systems overlap. If needed a fire watch is posted.

                                ///but you have to plan for the worst case senerio. ,,,you would need approx 6,600 GPM. //

                                So what is your solution to do what you suggest? The worst case is 6600 gpm, the building height is 45 stories, How many guys, what size lines, how long will it take? What is FDNY's solution? LAFD and Philly got their tail kicked so what FD on earth can do this?

                                You tell us we have to plan for the worst case situtation then say//I don't know anyone that can get that flow on the 15th floor of a building. // So what is the point?

                                //You need that "OLD FASHONED FIREFIGHTING" for the day Murphy pays you a visit.

                                Normally, a burnout results when you get behind, Philly, LA, FDNY. In other words it burns down to your size or runs out of fuel. So the plan might be to get out of the way, not kill anyone and use exterior streams.

                                ///Somehow I doubt that the LVFD forgot the lessons learned from the MGM fire. //

                                And what would those be? Please tell us.

                                800 foot 2 1/2" lines?

                                Sprinklers are important?

                                Doesn't matter how close a fire station is?

                                5000 victims need lots of room?

                                What size attack line do you pull on a 1.2 million sq ft fire?

                                You can never have enough air bottles?

                                You should be able to talk to your neighbors on the radio.

                                I don't suppose you were there were you?

                                //800 gpm handline nozzle?//

                                The big paulie tip, even folks in Indiana, Washington, Virgina and Texas know of it It has been published over and over for years in the trades.

                                //if you could get there before it gets big//

                                Well, if you could get there soon enough a pressurized water extinguisher would be the weapon of choice. Hmm, a 400 gpm tip beats a 600 gpm tip? You'd go with 50 psi over a 100 psi tip when reach is essential? No, Paul has the right idea if you have to go big go really big. Odds are he never wil in a casino. If the system takes a crap, it will most likelly be gone on arrival. History supports that.

                                Dang, get their before it gets big, what do you figure 3 minute ride, 10 minute climb up the stairs and you'll stop the fire eh? Obviously in a state where everything has electronic detection, follows the latest codes, rarely gives variances, and is fully sprinkled, LVFD will get there before the normal FD. When they get there, there oldest fire engine will be a 2000 model.

                                //but access roads ran behind and along the sides of most casinos. //

                                that's right and the building foot print is 1600 by 1600, what length and size line do you pull?

                                //Many departments only use 1.75" hose for highrise packs, //

                                As long as we are talking about FDNY, use of 1 3/4 inch lines not following their own sops which require 250 gpm 2 1/2's was a contributing factor to four recent firefighter deaths.

                                //If the busiest fire department in the world started using the Vindicator would you consider using it?//

                                They've rarely been the leaders at anything. Just now they are thinking about equipping their rigs with imagers, we did than in the 80's. They just recently thought firefighters should have more than a first aid card. We made tht decision in the 70's.

                                Other norms of the progressive fire service they don't use include:

                                Large diameter hose, only ahandful of their rigs have it.

                                Use of forward lays and preconnects.

                                Extrication equipment on engines.

                                Class A foam.

                                1250, 1500 or larger pumps they use 1000's.


                                They get to use all there fire equipment alot because the years of neglect on codes and an old housing stock and continued reluctance to retrofit old structures(politics). Unfortunately, years of not doing the right thing with codes has cost lots of firefighter lives. Most comparisons to FDNY anywhere else in the US are apples to oranges.

                                No I don't think I'd copy FDNY. They use 2 1/2" lines with 1 1/8" tips. Probably, the most cost effective solution is to provide them with 1 1/4" tips to use on their existing nozzles assuming they cannot put out fire with what they are using today. Oh, by the way they came to te conclusion of higher flows in 1968 went there and now they are back to lower flows.

                                Oh, but of course I'm not trying to sell someone a nozzle.




                                [This message has been edited by LHS* (edited November 02, 2000).]

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