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nozzle selection in Flashover conditions

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  • nozzle selection in Flashover conditions

    Is it possible to test the atmosphere for a Flashover with a smooth bore attack nozzle, I have done it in the past with a combination nozzle and it has worked well. And what are the pro's and con's of using a smooth bore verses a combination nozzle in Flashover conditions?
    "I have no ambition in this world but one, and that is to be a fireman. The position may, in the eyes of some, appear to be a lowly one; but we know the work which a fireman has to do believe that his is a noble calling."

    Edward F. Croker
    Chief 1899-1911
    Fire Dept. City of New York

  • #2
    In a flashover condition, I use whatever nozzle I have in my hand. Beggars can't be choosers.

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    • #3
      Please read my other 20 opinions about "thinking" you can duke it out in a flashover.

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      • #4
        I don't think it matters what nozzle you have when a flashover occurs, as long as you can get water out of it to cool the room down. Put personally, I like combination nozzles for any condition. A fog pattern can do a lot of things, put you have to know how to use it.
        It's just a permanent reminder of a temporary feeling.

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        • #5
          We built a flashover simulator several years ago and every member of our department got to see what a flashover looks like from the inside. We played around a lot and found that bumping a straight stream would stop it without steam-burning everybody in the room. Then you can open the straight stream up to cool it down some more and eventually go to the seat of the fire with a 30 degree fog. Any water would stop it from flashing. The trick was to prevent the flashover without getting steamed in the process.

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          • #6
            You need to recognize and not get yourself in that situation. If you're in a room and it flashes you will get seriously burnt or killed. NO line will protect you in that environment, you WILL get hurt.
            Prior to flashover while searching for the fire the smooth bore will generate less steam. I'm sure Paul will speak up soon, so I'll give you my opinion first. Put the fire out! Don't play with it, find the fire and put it out. I also can't overemphasize the importance of good aggressive ventilation. Ventilation will greatly speed your finding the fire and saving lives.

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            • #7
              To my limited knowledge, there has never been a firefighter injured in a flashover when any nozzle was being properly operated.
              It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

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              • #8
                Which ever one can flow water as you haul *** out of there, trust me flashover-vs-fire fighter guess who wins???????????......retreat....regroup......attac k from new position.
                Go raibh maith agat Go gcuire Dia an t-ádh ort! Dyfal donc a dyrr y garreg!!!!!

                IN MEMORY OF THE "MOOSE" 1974-2002<br />Ni bheidh mo leitheid ar'ris ann.

                Brothers till the end. "If they don't have GUINNESS in heaven we aint goin!"

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                • #9
                  We have been down this road before several months ago. Being in this situation and not recognizing it really sucks, however, at least in my case (or me and the probies case) it was survivable but I wouldn't want to do it twice! As far as nozzles go, if you have a fog (you,not me, I would have a smooth bore) keep it on straight stream because making steam is a very bad idea.

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                  • #10
                    Here we go again !!!
                    FTM-PTB
                    trk4

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                    • #11
                      As long as the knob in hand has the proper flow & pressure, well, it shouldn't matter at that point what kind it is.

                      WATER KILLS FLASHOVER! Good point to remember.

                      WATER ALSO PREVENTS FLASHOVER! With a fog nozzle, using short pulses into the overhead, it is possible (experience talking here) to prevent flashover, and in fact cool the overhead gasses, raise the level of the smoke significantly, make it easier to see, and give any trapped victims (remember them?) more fresher air space, which will increase their survivability.

                      No, I am not advocating fogs over smoothe bores. I AM advocating KNOWING HOW TO USE WHATEVER NOZZLES YOU HAVE.

                      Stay safe.

                      Ken

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                      • #12
                        Let start will the flashover condition. You should be able to realize that there will be indicators prior to flash occuring. This would include roolover which is the superheated gases at ceiling level lighting off and rapid increase in tempature. With this said something is worng if you are making an aggressive interior attack and ventulation is not taking place. this includes both vertical(externial) and horizontal(interior and externial). Know lets talk about the nozzle. Why would you want to use a nozzle (the fog) that is limited in volume of water it can put out based on pressure being supplyed from the pump pannel, creates more nozzle reaction (back pressure) on the firefighters and has the the ability to assist in burning the firefighters that use it. Keep in mind that gpm puts the fire out not the pressure. A smoothbore nozzle @ 50 psi and 15/16" tip delivers 184 gpm a minute. This nozzle dose not up-set the thermal balance and can be as effective as any fog nozzle. I would strongly suggest that you go back and review Chief Loyd Laymans study on fog nozzles and the Iowa University study by Keith Royer and Bill Nelson. Finnally look at Fire Departments like FDNY and San Fransico who use smoothbore nozzles as a standard.

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                        • #13
                          Just to let you know, that bit where you hit the atmosphere in short bursts with a narrow angle fog?, it didn't work for us, it rolled once, we hit it, it rolled a few seconds later, we hit it, it rolled and lit the room, we ducked, hit it and roasted ouselves. Was it vented? it appeared to have self vented in the rear prior to our arrival, apparently not well enough. Did I make some mistakes as an officer? yes. Will I make those mistakes again? Well no, but I'm sure I can come up with some others. Opening a fog in flashover conditions won't be one.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Crap, we must be doing something wrong. We have never had a problem with an automatic or a "variable pattern" nozzle operated as it's supposed to be and had a flashover occur on our people. The only time flashover occurs on a firefighter is when the firefighter does something incorrect or stupid.

                            Somebody help me out here, what are we doing wrong?

                            And what is defined as a narrow angle fog?

                            A smoothbore nozzle @ 50 psi and 15/16" tip delivers 184 gpm a minute.

                            An Elkhart 4000 can flow 250gpm at 50psi.

                            Why would you want to use a nozzle (the fog) that is limited in volume of water it can put out based on pressure being supplyed from the pump pannel,

                            Every single nozzle on the market does this, solids, autos, fixed flows.....

                            What kind of nozzle isn't "limited in volume of water it can put out based on pressure being supplyed from the pump pannel"?

                            creates more nozzle reaction (back pressure) on the firefighters

                            If your guys can't taket the back pressure, go low pressure, everybody has them and the 100psi'ers you have can be modified, probably in your station by the mfg. so they're not OOS for long.

                            and has the the ability to assist in burning the firefighters that use it.

                            Assist being the operative word here, won't happen if the FF is using it right.

                            Finnally look at Fire Departments like FDNY and San Fransico who use smoothbore nozzles as a standard.

                            Does that mean every other fire department that doesn't use smoothbores is doing it wrong or not using the right standard?

                            [ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: mongofire_99 ]
                            It's only my opinion. I do not speak for any group or organization I belong to or associate with or people I know - especially my employer. If you like it, we can share it, you don't have to give me credit. If you don't, we are allowed to disagree too (but be ready to be challenged, you may be on to something I'm not). That's what makes America great!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Oh.... don't stop now.... more posts...please
                              FTM-PTB
                              trk4

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