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  • E229Lt
    replied
    MM,
    BullS**t, The iron and demo workers at that site are as close to our brothers as anyone I've ever encountered.(PERIOD)

    Leave a comment:


  • MetalMedic
    replied
    Originally posted by ENG 6511:
    WOW,METAL MEDIC, where did you hear this stuff?
    As I stated, it is basically rumor that I have no way to verify. It was second hand by the time it got to me, and you know how hear-say evidence stands up in court. Hopefully there are members here from FDNY that can verify all or part of these claims....

    Leave a comment:


  • E40FDNYL35
    replied
    Mary Ellen please read this:
    Don't Abandon My Son
    & Others Buried at WTC

    By JOHN LYNCH

    Ground Zero is sacred ground where the remains of more than 3,500 people still lie in the rubble. Our son, Firefighter Michael Lynch, of Engine Company 40, Badge No. 2315, is one of them.

    Some grieving families have had remains returned to them and have been able to lay their loved ones to rest in a dignified, reverential way. But now Mayor Giuliani, with the apparent backing of Gov. Pataki and other elected officials, has effectively abandoned the recovery effort at Ground Zero and turned the site over to the Department of Design and Construction. This means the remains of my son, and of the other thousands still missing, will probably be bulldozed into a truck along with tons of debris and carted off in a garbage scow.

    I have visited the site every week, and I have seen a drastic change. The care with which the operation was conducted is gone. The workers now are indiscriminately scooping up debris that could contain human remains and dumping it into trucks.

    Unless the mayor, governor and other officials are pressured to change this decision, my son will be denied the dignity and my family will be denied the comfort of a decent funeral.

    The city has a history of treating burial sites with reverence. When a cluster of Colonial remains was found during excavation work for a new federal building in lower Manhattan, construction came to a halt and a new plan was painstakingly put into place that incorporates a large grassy memorial called the African Burial Ground. When human remains were found near City Hall Park, an archeological supervisor was assigned to the site, and no backhoe was allowed to dig until an inspection for bodies had been performed.

    For the city to treat the heroes and victims of the World Trade Center with less dignity is incomprehensible.

    The memorial service held at Ground Zero on Oct. 28 was no substitute for a serious effort to identify the remains of the fallen. It now seems that the service was a gesture toward "closure" to make way for the bulldozers. Immediately following the service, the number of firefighters involved in recovery was drastically cut for "safety reasons." But Ground Zero is still a fire scene, and the FDNY should be in charge of recovering the missing 3,500. Surely, dignity for these fallen firefighters; police officers; Port Authority and emergency service workers, and civilians should not be overshadowed by financial concerns or any other pressures.

    The soul of the Fire Department is the pledge that no brother member or his family will ever be abandoned. For Commissioner Thomas Von Essen to go along with the mayor's decision means he has broken that pledge and abandoned his men.

    Both the mayor and Von Essen are parents themselves, so it only adds to our grief that they don't seem to understand how the families feel betrayed. My family accepts that we will never again be able to go fishing with our son Michael and watch his beautiful smile when he hooks a big one. We and the other families ask only that the recovery effort continue until evidence of our loved ones can be found. That is the right thing to do.

    Giuliani has instructed us to take a lesson from the Yankees and "never give up." We are not giving up, Rudy. Why are you?

    Ground Zero is a battlefield. When thousands of New Yorkers went to work that morning, they were going to war, but nobody told them. This country has gone to great trouble and expense to find the remains of missing-in-action soldiers in Vietnam and rightly so, even though there were few clues as to their location.

    Now we have more than 3,500 American MIAs in New York, and we know exactly where they are. But the city will not take the time and trouble to recover the bodies.

    In dedicating the national cemetery at Gettysburg, Abraham Lincoln said: "We cannot consecrate — we cannot hallow — this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here have consecrated it."

    The World Trade Center has entered into history. The heroes of Sept. 11 consecrated the ground. Those who desecrate it will be subject to the harsh judgment of future generations.

    Lynch, the father of 10 children, is retired
    after 33 years with the Transit Authority.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mary Ellen
    replied
    Only time will tell whether Rudy made the right decision or not. Turning him into a demon won't help.

    What puzzles me is where is the voice of the leadership of FDNY? The officers who are responsible for the safety of their surviving men and women. In Worcester, a Chief stood in the doorway and forcibly held his men back and said - no more, they're gone. His courage meant others survived. Why aren't we hearing something from the officers of FDNY? In general do they agree with the Mayor's stance on safety or do they disagree?

    Only time will tell whether the decision made by Rudy is of that high a moral caliber.

    Leave a comment:


  • E40FDNYL35
    replied
    hctrouble25 READ THIS.I was trying to E-mail you but your E-mail is shut down.

    Dear President Bush:
    My name is Erika Ann Haub. My husband is Michael Helmut Haub, one of the Firemen who lost his life on September 11,2001. He was only a New York City Fireman for two years. He was working with Ladder 4 in Midtown Manhattan at the time of the terrorist attacks. His company, Engine 54 Ladder 4 Battalion 9, lost 15 brave men. We, have two children, Michael Andreas-4 years old and Kiersten Edda Haub-16 months old. My husband was only 34 years old and I’m only 23-year old. For me, being 23 I never thought this would happen to America or me. My husband was also a volunteer Fireman with Roslyn Highlands Fire Dept. for 10 years? In those 1o years he became Captain hoping to one day do the same in the FDNY. He was involved in the rescue efforts at the Avianca plane crash in1992. He was very proud to be a Fireman and an American.
    On November 2nd the firemen protested because they were pulled out of the recovery mission and bulldozers were brought in. I feel that the media is giving the public the wrong idea of why the firemen protested. I understand why they needed to do so. They, as I and all the families, want to bring the bodies of everyone they can find home for a proper burial. On September 14th at the FDNY family meeting, Mayor Rudy Giuliani and Commissioner Tom von Essen promised over 800 family members of fallen firemen that their FDNY brothers would be down at Ground Zero to recover our husbands, their brothers, until the last brick was picked up. The firemen are not the only ones angry, the wives and families are angry, too. The people who are missing, firemen, police officers, Port Authority and civilians died so horribly. Our families are in so much pain and now the decision to dig our family members up with machines with no respect has only increased our pain. There are Indian burial grounds which are sacred that no one is permitted to touch. It's been 25 year since Vietnam and we still search for missing soldiers' remains. So why not keep searching for the men and women who became soldiers on the front line September 11th? Where will my children visit their Dad, the City dump? When you stood at Ground Zero with the firemen you said, "I can hear you and the world hears you." Let them hear us now. We need to at least try to recover our loved ones’ bodies. You wore a FDNY sweatshirt at the first World Series game with your name on it. I believe that was a show of support for the now FDNY. Please show your support now to the FDNY. They need it now more then ever. You said they were making the world proud but after November 2nd's protest and falling out with the police I hope that still stands. You told them to be strong and they have –but without your support and especially the Mayor of New York, they feel alone.
    The FDNY is a family. Without them I wouldn’t have made it through the last two months. They have loved me, supported me, played with my children, driven me to the memorials for many of our lost men, picked up my funeral dress from the store, fixed my roof, sat with me keeping hope for the first week at the firehouse, bought presents for my son on his birthday October 16th, helped with paperwork and just all around been there for me. I love them. They are my family. The firemen’s wives help each other through this. At memorial services we sit together and share prayers, tears, tissues and feelings. I will have a connection with them forever. In my heart they are all my hero. Let the world know I look up to the Fire Department with pride and respect and can truthfully say my husband had-the best job in the world and I'm proud of him. Please help me try and bring the remains of my husband home and not just thrown away. I want to be able to say that The United States government didn't let me down a second time, the first time for allowing such people into our country and the second time allowing people to disrespect the body of my hero husband. . On your visit to New York you stated, "Out of the rubble and ash and ugliness there is a lot good!” Please allow the firemen to be remembered for that and nothing else but good men “Heroes"!
    There is a. Memorial Service schedule on November 18th. I know you were invited and I hope you will be able to attend. If you come, maybe you could recognize the importance of what the firemen have done and continue to do for the devastated families. Because of the recent change in the method of recovery I want you to be aware that the families are considering a boycott of the ceremony. Maybe you could make it possible for the FDNY to go back to recover as many bodies as they can physically find. I think you have done a great job leading our country so far. I hope you make a difference so that we don't have another terrorist attack ever again. Please do not let my husband have been murdered for no reason.
    I don't know if my letter will reach you, but I want you to know that I tried my best to make a difference. I am sending copies in all major New York City newspapers.

    Sincerely, a devastated American,

    Erika Ann Haub

    Wife of Firefighter Michael Helmut Haub
    Ladder 4, Badge #-1695

    Leave a comment:


  • hctrouble25
    replied
    Maureen:

    I think we all understand your anger and pain right now...we as ffs are after all one big family. However, I think you are angry at the wrong person here. Guiliani has proven many times over that he loves NYC and the people in it and especially the many Emergency Services Departments that serve there. I understand the need for these men and women to bring their own home, and their desire to stay there, but at what point do you call it off? In a year, in ten? Never? If the area is not safe, if people are again put in danger, if more lives will be lost, then is it really worth the risk? No. I didn't think they should have sent 400 ffs into the buildings in the first place...but they did. I didn't think the command post should have been set up in the lobby of a burning building...but it was. The only thing we can do now is to move forward, and pray that all the men and women are recovered and that their families are finally given some closure. Guiliani does not make all the decisions, just like Pres. Bush doesn't. He was advised that pulling the people out of the area was the best thing to do and he made a desicion based on the many pieces of information he received. The memorial should focus on the men and women that lost their lives trying to save others...not on the controversy surrounding Ground HERO right now. And if they were to hold it on the 18th I fear that the controversy would take center stage for some people...and I agree that we cannot allow that to happen. I pray for all the lost and missing men and women and their families, and I sincerely hope that we can have a memorial soon that is about them, and nothing else.

    Leave a comment:


  • E40FDNYL35
    replied
    November 2, 2001

    Dear Mayor Guillani,

    This morning 16 families from Engine 54, Ladder 4, Battalion 9 and one family from Ladder 105 went to ground Zero to have a prayer service on All Souls Day for our missing loved ones. Earlier on the news we were informed that you had decided to curtail the rescue effort and permit only 25 firefighters and police officers instead of 100 to search.

    I have attended 12 memorial services so far. At each one either you or one of your representatives were present. Your message was that the City would always remember the brave men that lost their lives saving others. Did you mean that the City would remember for 53 days? Did you mean to say that the men who lost their lives were only heroes for the first 53 days? Did you mean to say the Yankees are obviously more important than the 343 "heroes" that lost their fives and now it is time to "move on" "Return to Normalcy" and "spend money on shopping" to improve the economy? When you spoke you sounded so sincere. Was that just another political ploy on your part to fool the masses into thinking that you cared about all the lives that have been lost and the families whose lives will never be "back to normal."
    I am only a private citizen. I am a retired teacher. (Everyone knows how much you despise NYC teachers.) I gave the City 27 years of service. My husband is a retired Deputy Chief of the FDNY. He gave the City 40+ years of service. We are well aware that we are not politically in the right "circles." However, I can't help but wonder how the rescue efforts would have gone IF your son was among the missing. Would you have curtailed work after 53 days if your son had not been found? Do you have a double standard, one for "special" friends and one for the general public?
    Today was a day to cry and pray and hug each other in our profound grief. My prayer for you Mr. Mayor is that you never experience such loss. I am certain however, that if you did you would continue with vigor, and vigilance and perseverance until your loved one was found.
    Not understanding the firefighters who have been at ground zero for the past 7 weeks and their desire to continue to search only demonstrates you callousness and indifference and contempt for the civil servants of New York City. I sincerely hope that your "confidants" will convince you that "You are only as good as your last action." Your current action will help the world see the true Rudolph Guilliani. It is not a pretty picture.
    Sincerely,

    Maureen Santora
    Mother of Christopher Santora (age 23)
    Engine 54
    Badge 3041

    Leave a comment:


  • Kyle Wickman
    replied
    I agree Rudy is the man, and I will not pass judgement yet.

    Leave a comment:


  • hctrouble25
    replied
    No offense to anyone, and not to cause an argument...but I think we are all jumping on Rudy unfairly. None of us has seen the safety report, has been in the meetings, or knows the full extent of what is going on down there. The only experience I can speak from is that I live about 40 minutes outside the city, and that I have been in the city MANY times over the last 12 years. Rudy has done an AMAZING job of cleaning up the city, and protecting the firefighters, police officers, EMS people, and safety people. I think he is a hell of a guy, a hell of a politician, and I won't absolutely won't judge him until I know all the facts. I think Rudy is an upstanding man, and I would vote for him in a second if he ran for President. If he did something wrong then I will say so and also want a public apology from him to the fire service of this country. If he didn't then I think we as a fire service owe him an apology. For now, until I have more info, I reserve judgement.

    Leave a comment:


  • Firefighter631
    replied
    There may be a health issue at stake here, but in the end is the nature of our business not a health issue too. I dont know about anyone else, but I haven't read anything stating that firefighting is a safe job. I wonder how the mayor would feel if his son/family member couldn't have a proper burial becuase someone would not allow the FDNY brothers to recover the body. Ponder that one oh wonder "Mayor"


    Leave a comment:


  • truck12tillerman
    replied
    I just heard from someone in the FDNY command structure that is related to a SFFD FF that they were pulled out as soon as all of the gold and silver bullion was recovered .....confirmation?

    Leave a comment:


  • ENG 6511
    replied
    WOW,METAL MEDIC, where did you hear this stuff?

    Leave a comment:


  • MetalMedic
    replied
    Is there any truth to the rumor that the contractors "awarded" the job of removing the debris of the World Trade Center have a $300K bonus coming to them if they finish the task ahead of schedule? Is it also true that the torso taken to the landfill was seen being removed from the debris and when the safety workers pointed that out to the construction workers to not remove the body, the response was for them to go to the landfill if they wanted their body?

    I also understand that FDNY has a tradition of NEVER leaving the scene without first removing all bodies that are there. While I realize that there certainly will be bodies that will never be found, shouldn't it be the call of FDNY as to when they feel that have done all they could and not the decision of the contractors or the politicians?

    [ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: MetalMedic ]

    Leave a comment:


  • Rescue 101
    replied
    E229 correct me if I'm wrong here but with the level of destruction in these buildings and the method of destruction(200 ton aircraft + fuel)the very grim reality is that many people were vaporized and will NEVER be recovered.That by no means excuses the proper means of scene management,but being from the "sticks" I have no idea how or at what point you "call it".I think it should be left to the Brothers of FDNY and those who know the City to determine the best course of action.The buildings I have to deal with aren't as tall as the "pile".I do know that the Brothers won't rest until they bring everybody home.We need to support them where ever we can in the closure of this tragic incident, T.C.

    [ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Rescue 101 ]

    Leave a comment:


  • 70701224
    replied
    Just a thought. Did anyone see the bit on CNN about the "secret" CIA office in WTC? It aired right before the whole issue about limiting the number of firefighters at the site. Maybe CIA has something they don't want everyday grunts like us seeing.

    I can appreciate the concern for safety, but, I really believe that the FDNY firefighters need to recover their own. I'm sure if all parties really wanted to , some alternative could be reached so that work could proceed, but, body recovery could also continue.

    We are with you FDNY, stay safe.

    Leave a comment:

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