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HIRING STANDARDS FOR F.F.'S

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  • snowball
    replied
    Oh you people!!

    About 4 years ago my department hired it's first female FF. No one was sure of her abilities except her. She qualified under a joint recruitment exam system consisting of 9 area departments, ours being about the middle in size. She took the same written, agility, oral,psyche,and background as the rest of us "GUYS" She ended up pretty high on the list and was chosen by our dept as the #1 candidate based on her overall score. Yeah there were jokes and fun made of her, some questioned her abilities, yet she stayed stoic and played the game through her rookie year. She was assigned to my shift at my station (we only run 2-0 staffed)she had her own water tender to take care of. We worked exclusively together for two years before she promoted to engineer(scoring #1)then eventually getting hired with the large city dept.to our east. To this day whenever I get a new rookie I use the example she set to guage the overall performance of the FNG. I would trade all of them in to have her back. She worked harder, longer,and smarter then most of the knuckleheads since. I have even changed too, using the word staffing instead of 2 man, and firefighter instead of fireman. diabolical, there is hope for you just as there was hope for this old salt

    hctrouble, if you are as good as you say you are you're welcome in my station anytime.

    Leave a comment:


  • manofire2
    replied
    This issue will never die until subjectivity is taken out of the hiring process. As I have often said, hiring should be a totally blind process where each candidate is given a number and the successful candidate is selected based only on how she/he scores in a number of categories. And yes, strength should be one of those criteria, as should knowledge, agility, deductive reasoning, etc., etc., etc.

    Hiring based on quotas and minimum levels not only weakens the Fire Service but also casts a shadow of doubt and cheapens the accomplishment of any "minority" candidate who was hired because he/she was the best qualified and able candidate.

    A hiring process is after all called a competition. Let it be one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fire2123
    replied
    No one should be afraid of being called a racist or feminist. Understand these days that idiots will call just about everyone one of those two terms. I am going to get this off my chest. It's plain and simple: The best candidate should get the job. It doesn't matter if that person is black, white, asian, male or female. If Jane Doe wants to be a firefighter, she needs to fill out an application and take the tests like everyone else. And if she doesn't do well enough, the department shouldn't lower their standards or bend over backwards for her, Jane just needs to go home and work harder at improving herself and try again next time. No one should be given a job just because they are a minority. Look at the NBA. It is 90% black. Can I tell them they need to hire more white guys like me to "diversify" the league? They're a good example of an orginization that doesn't discriminate. They sign the best players, and 90% of them happen to be black. If a non-black player comes along that is good enough, he is hired by a team to play basketball. Look at Yao Ming. He didn't make it to the NBA because they wanted more international players to "diversify" the league. Yao made it because he is a special player. It just so happens that he comes from China. It's a shame that the citizens of this country can have the best players in the world playing for their favorite sports team, but can't have the best firefighters protecting their lives and property.

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  • viking73
    replied
    Originally posted by protomkv
    Viking73 says:
    Are you trying to say she should stay at home and let her hubby bring in a lower income, because he is the head of the family?

    Let the best and most qualified person have the job, regardless of race creed or sex.
    Trouble, if you are half as good as you appear to be, you can come work with me anytime.
    Ahh, we're talking firefighting here. Her husband can bring in the same amount of pay. Second, as to non-fire jobs, I'm talking about equally qualified applicants. But this doesn't apply to ff's since women are not physically equal to men. Appearently you think being a firefighter is equal to any other job out there and all you have to be is smart enough. Lastly, you appear to agree with me since I'm talking about females being hired because they are females and not the most qualified. As a 26 year vet, I have seen more and more people being hired who don't care about actually doing the job they were hired for but more concerned with taking the next promotional test. Too many departments are helping by looking less at experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • protomkv
    replied
    Viking73 says:
    "Think about this. For every female hired whether it's flying B-1's (OMG)or on a handline, there is a male head of the household who is trying to feed his family that is being denied work."

    Ok, so we have a very educated female who is capable of performing the job and earning a good wage, but she is married to a guy who doesnt have the ability to do the job or earn as good a wage. Are you trying to say she should stay at home and let her hubby bring in a lower income, because he is the head of the family?

    If you do mean it that way, then its the biggest load of bull I have heard in a long time.

    I know of a guy that stays home to mind the kids, while his wife earns the income, and she is much more qualified to earn the big bucks, now that makes perfect sense to me.

    Let the best and most qualified person have the job, regardless of race creed or sex.
    Trouble, if you are half as good as you appear to be, you can come work with me anytime.
    Last edited by protomkv; 08-03-2004, 01:38 PM.

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  • HazmatFFEMT36
    replied
    Sitting # 1 -It's not what it used to be.

    I sat at number one on the a hiring list for most of the past elgibility year. Well due to budget constraints (surprise) this mid-dize department could only afford one person,out of the original top seven, in the end. Inside sources tell me SHE is getting along well. SO how do I feel or better yet my wife and kids?

    Disappointed YES, Bitter NO..... Todays reality...

    I've placed within the top ten on some other departments but I thought #1 was going to be the place I'd be working at by now.

    Well I'm not giving up until my age becomes a barrier.
    Since my daughter is interested in firefighting I'm encouraging her to consider it. She probably has a better chance to surpass me on a list some day.


    Think of were I'd be today if I only had pursued sports better:
    #1 Draft Pick

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  • viking73
    replied
    Think about this. For every female hired whether it's flying B-1's (OMG)or on a handline, there is a male head of the household who is trying to feed his family that is being denied work.

    Now what I wanted to ask about hiring was if anyone else is experiencing the skipping of applicants to get to a female. Our city just skipped 30 good applicants because they were male to get to the lone female applicant. This is the problem with hiring females. It's not equal. Not only that but they work very very hard to get a female to even take the test. We have one on the dept that passed the tests and then quit saying she proved a point. The city talked her into continuing thru to the hiring phase. She works a few years and then quit. She then decided to come back. At least she had to retake all the tests instead of just being hired, surprised there. But imagine this, she ended up #1 on the list and is working today.

    Leave a comment:


  • 3greyhounds
    replied
    Re: the statement "Hiring Standards for FFs"...

    If the qualifications vary due to race or sex... they aren't standards. Need I say more?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tillerman-6
    replied
    To my Brother Diabolical...
    seeing as half of your total (11) posts in these forums have been in this topic I can guess that you haven't quite gotten used to people speaking their minds. This is the entire reason for these forums and you should never tell anyone that they have no right to speek their piece. On any topic. Never. You will see as you continue using these forums that heated discussions errupt and people have differences of opinion. But they have them and will continue to have them, so just relax a little brother and don't let anyone bait you.

    Now on this topic, I think minimum minority requirments should be illegal. The NY State Police go as far as to have two seperate tests, one for white males and one for women and minorities. Then there are two seperate hiring lists. This is unbelievable but true and I think disgusting as well. To think that women and minorities need an easier test and total seperation is just like saying they are inferior and need special help. Meanwhile there are well qualified white men who don't ever get hired and there are not so qualified women who do. If everything is as equal as all the liberals say it should be there would be no need for this system. Giving seperate standards is keeping this country apart just like all the discriminatory practices of the past had done. Keep it equal and you will always get the best reguardless of race or sex.

    [ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Tillerman-6 ]

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  • hctrouble25
    replied
    Hey Pepper...thanks!

    I think the bottom line is "if the person being hired can pass the test without the department lowering the standards, can do the job as well as the other firefighters, and is dedicated to what they do on the department, then they should get the job". Why is this so hard to understand?

    Leave a comment:


  • pepper
    replied
    Shed, don't worry about it. I've not been on here very long myself, but it seems like there's always a disagreement about something or other. Most of us are a little better at agreeing to disagree then some.
    And don't worry about Trouble-she's real good at standing up for herself.
    Trouble-get 'em!
    Diabolical-I second Trouble-show yourself or get a life! One of the greatest firefighters I've known personally was a female and the highest compliment I ever heard was when one of the probies (male) said," If I can be as good as her, I'll know I'm one of the best."
    One of the senior officers replied, "Stand in line, son, stand in line..."

    [ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: pepper ]

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  • diabolical
    replied
    This topic, which is about important HIRING issues, needs discussion; but it should be from firefighters that have experienced the process, and not from firefighters that just have opinions and have absolutley no hiring experiences.

    [ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: diabolical ]

    [ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: diabolical ]

    Leave a comment:


  • SHED376
    replied
    I am so sorry to have stirred this pot!! I apologize to all. I am new to the forums, so I was not aware that this has been discussed at length already. I can say that it bothers me that we as firefighters (volunteer or career) cannot be more professional towards each other! I try to respect all of your opinions, even though I may not agree. And the last thing you will hear me do is attack you as a person, although I may openly disagree with your position, it seems as though we reverted back to our childhood a little, and again, I'm not trying to slam you(you know who you are). In the famous words of Rodney king " can't we all just get along" It can be tough, but then again who is tougher than us? We're f.f.'s we're built to be tough, the only thing tougher is a band of f.f.'s. So now especially, lets try to at least be cordial to one another. Thank you all for your replies, I enjoyed reading them , and lets just put this issue to bed. I promise I will try to select my questions better in the future! Shed

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  • hctrouble25
    replied
    Gonzo you and I don't always agree on everything...but thanks! My father was in the US Navy for almost 33 years...he was the Chief of the Boat for a number of submarines including nuclear subs. He taught me (his only daughter out of 5 kids) to always stand up for myself. He also encouraged the women he worked with in the Navy to get in there and fight for what they wanted. While he understood the reason why women were not allowed on subs (6 months tours, no private bunk areas, 3 months under water, horny men, etc.), he didn't understand or condone not allowing women to be fighter pilots, on front lines, on carriers, etc. He always told me to stick up for myself, to speak my mind, and above all to believe in myself and go for my dreams. Being a fire fighter and EMT is a dream realized for me and I won't let anyone tell me I am not good enough or strong enough to do the job...because I do the job every damn day. So thank you to all the men out there that understand where I am coming from....I am fortunate that the men on my department let me do my job, don't treat me like a chick that can't do what is expected of me, and don't question my loyalty and dedication to my department, the brotherhood, or to saving lives. The first structure fire I went on I went in as back up on the hose line with a mutual aid Chief....my Asst. Chief basically said..."you all packed up, collar up? Good, get in there girl!". I did. All the guys including mutual aid fire fighters said I earned their respect that day and no one has since questioned my dedication to the fire service. Until you work with me and see what I am capable of first hand don't judge me based on your past experiences with other women. I am definitely NOT your ordinary woman. As a matter of fact I don't know any EMTs, Fire Fighters, or Paramedics (male or female) that are ORDINARY..we do the job that many others cannot do. I also think doctors, nurses, surgeons, police officers, military personnel, etc. are not ORDINARY...I couldn't do the jobs they do..but I appreciate all of them for what they do, and for the contributions they make to this society, and that is what matters!!! God Bless!

    [ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: hctrouble25 ]

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  • Captain Gonzo
    replied
    With some of the attitudes of firefighters about firefighters who happen to be female, you would swear that they were members of the Taliban!

    FYI...at an air show I attended this summer, the United States Air Force had a Bone, aka the B1B Lancer bomber. The "Bone" took off in less than 2500 feet of runway under full military power, did a low speed pass at 350 MPH, then buzzed the runway at 600 MPH with the wings swept back, then straight up to 15,000 feet. The pilot and aircraft commander was Colonel Rebecca Martin. Yessir, gentlemen...Uncle Sam has entrusted the command of a mutimillion dollar combat aircraft to a warrior of the opposite sex. There's an excellent chance that she is flying out of Diego Garcia and giving payback to the terrorists for what they did to our brothers in the FDNY!

    [ 10-10-2001: Message edited by: Captain Gonzo ]

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