HIRING STANDARDS FOR F.F.'S

[SHED376]

I'm curious as to what people think:
Hiring females and minorities over qualified and expirienced f.f.'s?
How do you get qualified females and minoroties?
Honest question to the guys. Have you ever been nervous going into a fire with a woman?
These are just questions, please don't be offended by them. I am at odds with these issues, as are many others, when ever hiring time comes up in my dept. No, I am not racist, nor am I sexist. I am curious to hear real opinions!

Brotherhood, duty, honor, pride...
God bless FDNY in thier time of need.

[fieryred943]

Hi SHED376, Hope you don't mind an opinion from a FireFighter who happens to be female.

On your first question, hiring females/minorities over qualified & experienced ff's. It seems like you are looking at a quantity over quality issue. What is bothers me is does your department have minimum standards that have to be met during the application process? If so, then the individuals applying obvisously fit that first criteria. Then there is the obvious fitness tests, interviews, etc.... Provided that "standards" aren't lowered for these individuals (and we can argue about that until the cows come home) Should the individuals in question not be given an opportunity? I mean once hired they are on a probationary period where their skills and abilities are tested. And given a time period, if their performance is not up to par then proper actions may be taken.(then again the legalities...well lets just say it could be a big court fight) Granted there will always be more qualified/experienced individuals that are being left out. But if my memory serves me (I may be wrong), does not city council or elected officials make the call on the % of "minorities" to be hired? Just a thought on that question.

How do you get qualified females & minorities? Well I will tell you what I did to get into the fire dept. I went to a Fire College. Before I got in the college I had to take a written exam,fitness test and go through an interview. I spent 8 1/2 months of training that gave me the building blocks to work in the Department. I learned everything from Level 1 & 2 FF, Driving,Pump Ops,Haz Mat Tech,ARFF,& EMT (and a bunch of other little courses in between). Long days/nights of hard work, studying, training, & working out. Sounds like what I do right now! They just prepared us for it.

As for the last question...can't answer it for my guys. All I know is I come to work I wear the same uniform and I do the same job as they do. If I didn't think I could do the job, I would be the first to say so. I would walk away without a fight. It is not worth risking the lives of the guys that I work with or my own.

This is my opinion alone, these opinions donot reflect the opinions of the department that I am affiliated with in any way.

Never forget those who lost their lives in NY. God Bless NYFD

[firedog11ku]

I believe that there are plenty of good ff's that are women and minorities. But when it comes to testing, I think that part is a joke, at least here in the upper mid-west. I was testing at one of the larger departments in this area and I was told by a member of the hiring commity that the men wouldn't be considered with a time above 4minutes in a physical similar to the ff combat challange, yet the women and minorities were give a ceiling of 8 minutes. Even under the males time, I had a friend who was number 2 on their list. They were hiring 65 people. He didn't get the job. I think this is a key case of a department trying to keep above the "Equal Opportunity Minimum Staffing" line. I don't mind not getting a job because the other person, Whether it be a man or woman, white or black, as long as they got that job on a level playing field. But to not get a job because you are not a minority or a female is unsafe and rediculous.

[hctrouble25]

We have argued this before in past posts...and I have done my fair share of yelling..especially since I am a female. I will explain it to you like this...I don't agree with any department lowering standards to allow females or minorities onto the department. However, I also don't agree with the guys that can't accept that some women got there by doing the job as well as they do. If they pass the test, pull their weight, and do the job..then let them do it. As for going in with a woman...well, we have discussed this at my firehouse on many occassions. Not one guy has ever told me they wouldn't go in with me...they know I am capable of pulling them out cause we drill on this. There is a guy on my department that I won't go in with cause he is a freelancer and dangerous and I don't want to get hurt or killed....I make it known that I don't trust him and the other guys don't trust him either. It has nothing to do with gender...it is all about whether you can do the job and whether you do it. I will be honest and say I am not a typical girl...I am pretty strong, am very comfortable around men, am outspoken, honest, and willing to risk my *** to save someone elses...even if it means breaking a nail haha. There are other women in the area that call themselves fire fighters but that stand around at calls and do nothing but watch everyone else work...I don't go for that. If you are going to do the job do it...or go home. There are a lot of women out there that cannot do the job..and I recognize this...but those of us that do should be appreciated for our contributions to the fire service. Don't let the 500 women that don't do the job decide what you think about the 200 that do their jobs and do it well. Just my 2 cents worth. Take care.

The United States Department of Justice can tell you how to get "qualified" minorities. Through law suits they are telling my dept.

[diabolical]

Some words go good together; cheese and burger, fog and nozzle, straight and stream.

Some words don't; female and firefighter.

hctrouble25: Sorry kid-o, but I for one am sick and tired of you, an inexperienced volunteer from a small western sleepy new jersey town whose yellow fire engines have 10 times more motor hours than pump hours, jumping in on topics about hiring.

Insert your very own "hooked on phonics" comment here because this issue is about H-I-R-I-N-G and not, repeat NOT about volunteering.

Yes, you've done your share of yelling on this subject, but have you ever answered any of the questions posed to you; such as how many fires have you been to?

Your inexperience shows. Stick to what you know.

[SHED376]

I see that this issue is a sore subject everywhere, as in my dept! Thanks to everyone who replied! One of the reasons I posed this question: I was first due engine at a working job, it was rock'in pretty good! Before I went to work I glanced at the RIT team, and there sat 2 women on the RIT. I remember thinking "I have to be just a little better on this one". Later while recalling the incident in my mind I felt bad about that thought for 2 reasons. 1. Shoud'nt I always "be just a little better"? We are trained to be the best, why would this be any different? 2. The 2 women are friends of mine, who are good f.f.'s and I have never doubted thier abilities before. Why now? I can guess as to why I felt this way at that particular time, but I don't understand it. I rationalize that it was a "good" fire that we actually had "work over" for awhile, and I was concerned that this could have the potential to go bad in a hurry. I rarely worry about my self getting hurt, I usually worry about the rest of my team. So that was the premise of the question, thank you again for responding! If anyone else has any thoughts or suggestions please feel free to drop them here, and I'd love to read them!!!!
EVERYONE, please stay safe...

[hctrouble25]

Hey diabolical..have the balls to tell me who you are and what town you are from and I might give a rats *** about what you think. People like you are what is wrong with the fire service today. You don't care about anyone but yourself and don't give anyone a chance to prove themselves..that is just plain stupidity. I might be the best fire partner you ever had if you took the time to work with me....but instead you choose to assume that because I have boobs and nothing hanging between my legs that I can't do the job. My two partners on my department are 6', 200 pounds and 6' 1", 220 pounds and they have no problem with me doing my job or with trusting me with their life...they knows I would risk mine to save theirs any day. That is what counts in the fire and on the fire grounds..not whether I come equipped with a penis or not.

Also...in regards to your comment about H-I-R-I-N-G, and not volunteering...are you saying that volunteers are not as qualified as those that are paid? I would really love to know the answer.....I think you better be very careful about how you answer this one. Just because I don't get paid doesn't mean I didn't have to take the same test, pass the same physical requirements, etc. as the guys. And by the way...overall (including all tests, quizzes, practicals, etc.) I had the HIGHEST grade in my Fire Class.

[ 10-09-2001: Message edited by: hctrouble25 ]

[tfogle]

I'm gonna keep my mouth shut on this one folks. Sounds like no matter how you stand, someone is gonna flame you!

[fire69dawg]

I see that there are many mixed feelings on this subject. My personal opinions are as follows. I do think that as long as the standards are kept the same across the board for everyone, fine. BUt once you start to discriminate against certain sexes or races, thats were I have a beef. Also I do think that the whole Testing Process is a crock. I personally look for the departments that hire based on QUALIFICATIONS. These departments generally pay as good as some larger depts but they look at individuals who possess the needed qualifications to perform the job safely. I feel that if a person is qualified(no matter if they are white, black, yellow, orange, male or female) then they deserve the job. These towns and cities that do not give "tests to rank individuals" are showing how much they care about their community and their department. They are looking for the best qualified people instead of trying to meet "quotas". Again I pat these depts on the back. But in this day and age, it is all about the politics.

[diabolical]

No hctrouble25, YOU are what is wrong with the fire service today ...... talking about stuff that you know absolutley nothing about.

Where did YOU get H-I-R-E-D on to be such an expert on this question? Nowhere!

You're a volunteer in new jersey, you're appointed by your mayor and council, and in all honesty it didn't matter if you passed the state relief physical or not. (County fire school test scores don't matter - it's your actions at fires that matter).

You were not HIRED, you volunteered. How does that make you a civil service expert and give you liberty to chime in on a question about getting H-I-R-E-D?

You don't know squat about getting hired. All you ever did was take the cops test. That's the closest you ever got, and how did you do?

This hasn't become paid vs volunteer issue and you can't try to make it one; it's about you opening your mouth up about stuff that you know nothing about.

Stick to what you know; freelancing, parking problems, rekindles, conventions, parades, and nicknames.

[Captain 12]

When the poop hits the Fan NOW

THE ONLY THING TO DO, IS GO BY TESTING,,,

JUST BECAUSE SOMEBOBY MALE OR FEMALE, BLACK OR WHITE. IT DON'T MATTER

AS FAR AS OUR FEMALE FIREFIGHTER SAID ON THE MIN. STANDERS, DO YOU WANT THE CREAM OF THE CROP OR THE CREAM OF THE CRAP... IT'S EASY START AT THE TOP OF THE LIST AND WORK DOWN THE FOOD CHAIN,,, IF FEMALES OR BLACKS WANT THE JOB THEY JUST HAVE TO WORK HARD AND DO BETTER ON THE TEST, JUST LIKE THE REST OF US...

IF YOU WANT TO REWARD FIREFIGHTERS FOR BEING STUPID JUST MOVE TO MIAMI FLORIDA...

[Quint1Medic]

Apropos of nothing and nobody in particular, if I noticed that every single time I say *anything* on the Firehouse Forum I **** somebody different off, I might think twice about posting every time I have a reaction to what someone's said. Evidently I might not be coming across the way I wanted to (...or perhaps I don't care how I come across?).

There are those of us who have debated the "female firefighter" issue ad nauseum and would like to give it a rest. Some of our brethren may have had negative experiences with female firefighters; perhaps some of them might even be *gasp* biased against women. Either way, we're not going to change their opinions. Therefore, we're not responding to the persons with whom we do not agree. These stupid threads die out a lot faster that way.

[E_man9RFD]

Just inner peace showing through,

[pwc606]

This was debated earlier this year with about the same results. A big fat ZERO. I wouldn't give you ten cents for someone who doesn't believe in the vary freedom that this nation stands for. To not accept someone for for there ability and agility is beyond me. If you can't respect someone enough for passing the tests that we take and the training we go through then you need to check your MOTHER F***ing tude at the GOD D*** door. Yes sir I am talking to you Diabolical. Respect is earned sir. If anyone who takes the test where I work passes it, I am more than happy to work them! Other wise better luck next time, hit the gym.

If anyone has an issue with my comments send me an email. I will be happy to dicuss it with them outside the FAMILY FORUM. After all we are brothers and sisters!!

Matt