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  • #16
    Yes and I agree with you that they took the job and paycheck but now it is a problem...they are wrong...but they still have the right to say what they want and to not get on those trucks if they don't want to. Nothing changes that. That is the only point I am trying to make. I am angry too but getting angry won't stop them from feeling the way they feel, and it won't do me any good to get angry. I am not disagreeing with you at all Nozzlehog.

    All I can say is that I have lived a different life than most..I spent 3 1/2 years overseas during the mid 80s and during the whole Middle East crisis. I spent 3 months of my high school year being escorted from class to class by Marines armed with machine guns. I was not allowed to leave school during the day to go have lunch at home even though we lived a half a block from the campus, I had to show two specific forms of ID to go anywhere on or off the base, I was questioned and frisked when I went to my father's office before I was allowed to get in to see him, etc. This was just normal life to me for a number of years. I guess I have seen that we are a free but very relaxed society...overseas they live terrorism every day, week, year, whatever, and that is normal to them. We are lucky we don't have to. I understand how it feels to be the minority in a country full of people from a different culture..in some parts of Spain they loved us in other parts they would point make believe guns at us and say things like "die American bitches". I simply understand that people of different races, religions, cultures, etc. view things very differently than me and that does not make them wrong..just different. We as a nation allow many people from other countries to come into our country and to live free and to get special loans, etc. The way I see it if you want to be an American then you better do as we do..pay your taxes, abide by our laws, etc. In other countries if you break a law they throw your butt right in jail...they don't care if you are American or not...there is no special treatment. If we want to protect ourselves we have to be more strict about who comes here, what they have to do to stay here, and what they need to do to become citizens of this great country. And if we say freedom of speech and religion then we have to deal with what comes with that even when we don't agree with it. You can't pick and choose what laws you want to obey so how can we dictate what religious beliefs are OK and which are not? We can't. Sometimes Freedom comes with a price tag. That is just the way it is.

    [ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: hctrouble25 ]
    Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

    Comment


    • #17
      In my personal thoughts on this issue. Okay the F.D. is part paid for and funded by the american citizens. so there for i think it's rightfully so we fly the flag on the fire trucks. plus i feel( i know this sounds crazy) but i think this i think the american flag has a sence of calming people down after they've lost there house or office to a fire or whatever. I personally think when i look at it i see many years of struggles and wars and fighting for freedom and democracy it should make any american proud.
      I know I'm probably not fair when it comes to observeing others religons of others(cause i herd don't want the flag flown cause it's against there religon) but i say heck with it the majority of the people want it flown.

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      • #18
        hc.,

        You are correct that these people have the right to voice their opinions, but they do not have the right to refuse to make the calls. Our personal opinions aside, we are paid to make the rig and do a job. Refusing to get on the rig in order to make a political statement is unforgivable. We are not bagging groceries or selling used cars here. I'm sure they would feel much differently if it were their mother who was in need of emergency assistance and the crews refused to get on the rigs in order to make a statement.

        Give your opinion as loud as you want. But, don't refuse to do your job as a means of conveying that opinion. I still can't believe this story is true. People never fail to amaze me.

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        • #19
          I think that the discussion of who is right and who is wrong in this does not really matter. The two people in Miami are done. They can kiss their jobs good bye. The city is not going to fire them but they are still not going to work there for long and I'll tell you why. The firefighters of Miami are not going to give these guys one once of love. They are going to be picked on and singled out. Ridiculed and humiliated. The work enviroment for those two or three will not be a pleasant one. There is only so much that a person can take before they quit. If I was the Lt or Cap of the truck I would have taken it off and let my crew handle the rest.

          The fire department is a tight group. They will become united in the destruction of anything that threatens the groups harmony and well being. I say stand back and watch the firefighters take care of what needs to be done.
          Hamy91

          Firefighters are the chosen people.
          _________________________

          My views do not reflect that of my department

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          • #20
            HCTrouble - You are confusing your rights as an individual with your rights in the workplace. I have the right to voice my opinion regardless of how it upsets others at home - Not at work. I have the right to wear what I want at home - Not at work. I have the right to not fly a flag at home - I can't make that decision at work. I have the right to spend an hour a day reflecting on my religious beliefs at home - Not at work. It goes on and on. They are paid to do a job. That job entails duties and restrictions. If they can't do that job under the current conditions, then they should be gone.

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            • #21
              It is a very sad day when a brother fire fighter has so much hate in his heart he cannot for just a moment put it aside to show respect for our fallen commrades. I am a fire fighter in central Mississippi and have been for eighteen years but I have never seen such a ridiculous act performed by one of "us" (fire fighters). I pray that these men's heart can heal so maybe they can help those that have had a mother or father lost in this tragic time get over a "real" trying time!
              Stewart Teague

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              • #22
                Stay Low & Halligan: Right on.

                HC: Yes, they have the right to say what they want. But if they choose not to get on the rig and do their job that's different. In that case they should be fired for insubordination and abandonment of their position. In fact, it is essential to the good order of their department that they be fired to ensure discipline within the ranks in the future.
                Put another way, if the Captain at my company decides he wants to drive around the first due all day with the gay pride flag flapping off the truck, he is the one in charge...I might not like it and there are channels I could through to express that, but if I went home or refused to go to fires on that rig...I would be wrong and should be fired.

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                • #23
                  The newest info on firehouse.com says that the Associated Press has come out with new information stating that these guys did NOT refuse to do their jobs..that the flags were in the way on the trucks and causing problems. I don't know if that is true or not. Just passing along the info I read. I still say until the whole story is out we need to wait to pass judgement. Sorry just my opinion on it.
                  Never forget those who went before and sacrified to make us better and stronger as a fire service and a nation. 09-11-01 forever etched in time and our memories. God Speed Boys!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    "I agree that they should not be paid if they do not ride...but they should not be discriminated against if they choose not to ride."


                    "I having been duly appointed to the office of(substitute whatever you wish here) and for the Township/City/Town of anyplace, anystate, do swear that I will support and obey the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the (Commonwealth/State of whatever state you want), and that I will perform the duties of the above-mentioned office with all fidelity."

                    The above is what I basically swore to when I agreed to take the position that I presently occupy as a PUBLIC SERVENT. Failure to do so would be a reason for my boss to sever the employeer/employee relationship.

                    Failure to ride on the apparatus for any reason by a sworn firefighter is dereliction of duty and most likely a violation of a sworn oath. Last time I looked that was a firing offense.

                    They are entitled to their opinion and as an employeer who must be held accountable to the public for the funds taken from the taxpayers, they have a right to fire their butts.

                    Just my two cents and that won't buy even one.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      XXX Associated Press is reporting the three are disputing the facts as initially reported claiming the flag was removed because it was in the way, but they never refused to get on the fire truck, nor did they refuse to respond to calls.


                      These suckers are really backpeddling now. They deserve whatever punishment is meated out(discharge). The refusal to respond on the apparatus is a total disregard for the oath of office and all we stand for. They have the right to say what they feel, they do not have the right to refuse to respond!!!!

                      Funny how a paycheck turned their opinions around so fast. I guess their belief was not that strong.

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                      • #26
                        Well if "our" American flag isn't good enough
                        for these "African's", can't be called African Americans, then we should deport them as traitors!!!!!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I wonder if the media has failed to tell you that they are radical muslims? Don't let them give our African American brothers and sisters a bad name on their behalf.
                          "...that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain; that this nation shall have a new birth of freedom; and that this government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." Lincoln's Gettysburg Address, November 19, 1863.

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                          • #28
                            Yes but which also means they have the right to not ride on those trucks if they choose not to. And if they don't they should not be paid since they are not working.
                            No they really dont.
                            They arent selling insurance...they are Firefighters...they made an oath to save lives. IF they dont like the flag...let them file a formal complaint with the department and then get on the blasted truck. When they dont perform their pledged duties...people die.

                            They live, breed, socialize, work, pay taxes in america...but now that they see a flag on a truck they find it offensive.

                            Too bad...They should have sold insurance instead if they did't have the fortitude to stand behind their oath.

                            I wonder, if their comrades in arms die, do they protest the funeral cause of the appearance of the American Flag?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'm not a firefighter, I'm a U.S. citizen, one who believes in our Constitution and all the rights that it grants. I believe in our Democracy, and that majority rules. AND, I believe in Old Glory, I believe an attack on her is an attack on me. I watched the Confederate flag come down because it was a symbol of oppression, it p!ssed me off, but I didn't scream and holler, majority rules. What these men did has nothing whatsoever to do with freedom of speech, freedom of religion, or any other Constitutional freedom, it's act of rebellion, and should be dealt with as such.

                              That U.S. flag represents every freedom that we hold dear, including speech and religion. It represent the men/women who fought and gave thier lives for those freedoms to continue. It represents the basis of our democracy, and it really upsets me when someone can deny it, yet partake of everything it represents. If that flag is so repulsive, then so is everything she represents, so don't go screaming freedom of speech and religion at me. They don't have the right!

                              I'm a citizen, just another Joe Blow, and it kinda makes me wonder how I'd be treated if they came to my house, where my flags flies high? If the Flag inteferes with thier transportation and obligation, how's it gonna intefere with the care I receive? It's just a thought.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I JUST WANT IT NOTED THAT THE STATEMENTS I MAKE ARE IN NO WAY THE OPINIONS OF MY F.D., LOCAL OR CITY GOVERNMENT.

                                ON THAT NOTE, I JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT AS A GULF WAR VETERN AND PROFESSIONAL FIREFIGHTER, I AM DEEPLY SADDENED AT THE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON IN FLORIDA.

                                THIS NATION AND OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF THE FIRE DEPTS AND EMS. SERVICES. HAVE BEEN ATTACKED AND KILLED AT THE HANDS OF TERRORISTS... AT A TIME WHEN THE NATION LOOKS TO US FOR HELP, WE SHOULD NOT BE LETTING OUR GUARD DOWN. HOW CAN THOSE THAT WORK IN THE FIRE SERVICE, NOT SUPPORT AND DISCRACE THE FLAG . I KNOW OF NO ORGANIZED RATIONAL RELIGION THAT FORBIDS THE SUPPORT OF A FLAG. I AM APPAULED THAT FIREFIGHTERS WOULD NOT WANT TO RIDE ON A RIG WITH AN AMERICAN FLAG ON IT. WHY DID YOU JOIN THE FIRE SERVICE IN THE UNITED STATES IF YOU WILL NOT SUPPORT THE FLAG. IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE FLAG, OR AMERICA; FIND SOMEWHERE ELSE TO WORK. I VALUE AND SUPPORT THE FLAG AND ALL IT STANDS FOR. I CAN'T SEE HOW THE AMERICAN FLAG CAN STAND FOR OPPRESSION TO YOU.. ESPECIALLY AS AFRICAN AMERICANS. I MEAN YOU GOT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG REMOVED BECAUSE OF WHAT YOU SAY IT REPRESENTS. LEARN FROM HISTORY. CAN YOU TRULY SAY THAT THE FLAG STANDS FOR OPPRESSION? I MEAN LOOK AT THE FREEDOMS THAT WE AND YOU HAVE BECAUSE OF THE WARS AND BATTLES THAT WERE FOUGHT UNDER THE FLAG AND THE MILLIONS OF LIVES LOST TO ENSURE YOU HAVE A FREE COUNTRY TO LIVE IN. WOULD YOU LIKE TO GO LIVE IN SOUTH AFRICA? I'M SURE THAT YOU WOULD FEEL DIFFERENT ABOUT THE FLAG AND ALL IT STANDS FOR...

                                SO IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, KEEP YOUR OPINIONS TO YOURSELF. DO NOT DEFAME THE FIRE SERVICE AND THE UNITED STATES WITH YOUR "BELIEFS".

                                AND AS FOR THE A.C.L.U. STAY AWAY FRO THIS.. THE AMERICAN COMMUNIST LABOR UNION HAS ALREADY DONE ENOUGH FOR THE GREAT PEOPLE OF THIS LAND.. YOU HAVE HAD PRAYER REMOVED FROM OUR SCHOOLS, THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE REMOVED, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS AND ALL THIS FOR A FEW WHINING GROUPS. THROUGH ALL YOU HAVE DONE, LOOK WHAT HAS HAPPEND TO US. BY REMOVING THE VERY THINGS THAT THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON YOU HAVE TURNED US AGAINST EACH OTHER. AND THAT IS A SIGN OF WEAKNESS, WHICH IS NOT A GOOD THING. AS THE STRONGEST COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WE ARE WEAKEND BY BLEEDING HEART LIBERALS AND THOSE WITH NOTHING TO DO THAN TO DO WHAT YOU THINK IS GOOD FOR US.. LET US MAKE THAT DECISION.. STAY AWAY FROM THIS. YOU HAVE ALREADY DONE ENOUGH DAMAGE.

                                TO OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN THE FIRE SERVICE, DO NOT DISPAIR. DO NOT LET THE MISUNDERSTOOD AND MISGUIDED STRAIN YOUR SENSE OF PRIDE AND STRENGTH. THIS LIKE ALL OTHER THINGS TOO WILL PASS.

                                TO THE FAMILIES AND FIREFIGHTERS IN NEW YORK, PLEASE EXCEPT MY SYMPATHY AND CONDOLENCES AT THE LOSS OF YOUR LOVED ONES. I PRAY FOR ALL OF YOU. KEEP STRONG AND GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

                                AND GOD BLESS AMERICA.

                                THANK YOU.

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