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  • #16
    adze - to restate, officially no volunteers were allowed in. This statement got rid of about half the people who were there. Unnofficially down on the scene I saw Chicago, Philly, Columbus, all over.

    Truro - It was hell in every way, from trying to get down there to seeing the destruction. I ran into vingle and the guys he came down with, as well as a girl from violet and a 2 unit ladder 8 guy. I also ran into a guy that used to work for Whitehall and now works on South Bronx engine 50. Nice guy

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    • #17
      I think what you'll see in the next couple months is refining of our national mutual-aid systems.

      As much as people want to rush to help, a lot of what we've seen is simply unacceptable.

      If you don't have specialized skills, there was no reason operationally for people to rush from other states -- they may have been making themselves feel better, but they didn't affect the outcome. They could've stayed home and other people in the area filled their role if needed. If they need grunts, there were plenty available civilians and even fire departments in the region.

      One can only imagine the chaos it would cause to have a series of coordinated attacks, where firefighters self-dispatching and freelancing go rushing like lemmings to one place, only to have an attack occur on a city closer to where they left.

      Was there a place for self-dispatching? Probably in the initial few minutes -- I would hope if I was there I would've taken shelter as the collapse wave passed and immediately turned around and started helping. Not when your miles away or hours afterwards.

      Our strongest allie is ORGANIZATION. No matter how strongly we feel, how strongly we personally want to help, we must maintain our *discipline* and respond as Companies per pre-determined plans. We can not simply rush in!

      Take your personal feelings of wanting to help right now -- for most of you, you're not needed at ground hero. But...
      -- What are your departments/county/state mobilization **plans** & **procedures**
      -- What is the risk in your area/state
      -- Does your county/state have adequate USAR resources to start the basic evaluation of the situation while waiting for help? (Mine, CT, does *not*.) What can you do to help improve that situation?
      -- I wonder how many officers took the opportunity this past week to review their department's SOPs regarding bombings/bomb scares/terrorist activities with their troops?

      Bottom line...when needed respond in a planned, organized manner through official channels (local mutual aid agreements or your state Emergency Management Agency). When not needed, make sure your ready to respond whether it's to another state or the city down the road from you.

      Matt
      IACOJ Canine Officer
      20/50

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      • #18
        Once again, Matt has "spoken" (so to speak) the voice of reason in the din of confusion.

        I am sure if you asked every firefighter in the country if they would go to NYC to assist in the rescue effort, the answer would be yes. Do we all have training in urban search and rescue, confined space, tunnel and trench rescue? No, we do not.

        The FDNY has a mission...to recover the victims of the WTC and bring their brothers and sisters home. They will request the assistance of others through the proper channels when they need it. There are many other ways one can help...showing up in Manhattan and saying "put us to work" is not one of them at this time.
        ‎"The education of a firefighter and the continued education of a firefighter is what makes "real" firefighters. Continuous skill development is the core of progressive firefighting. We learn by doing and doing it again and again, both on the training ground and the fireground."
        Lt. Ray McCormack, FDNY

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        • #19
          Guys, I am sorry if my post sounded bad. It had nothing to do with paid/vol. This was about steel workers not in this one local not being allowed to go. I have no beef with the paid/volly thing. I am a union firefighter with the New Jersey State F.M.B.A
          This space for rent

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          • #20
            I agree with Dalmation90 on this one. We'd all gladly go to help out if given the chance. But most of us are waiting and going through the proper channels. Help out in your community if you can't stand sitting around. The fallen brothers and sisters died helping others. We can carry on their memory by doing good things for the people we protect. Not freelancing. If you freelance and go against accountability systems, you could become a victim. This would further hinder the operation. They may not know you are missing until it is too late.

            Unfortunately, this is going to be a prolonged operation. Only the state emergency management officials know if we'll be called to help. Just remember that FDNY members are grieving the loss of "family" members and we should take their thoughts into consideration. If they ask, we will go. Until then stay home.

            Stay safe out there everyone. God Bless FDNY
            Tom

            Never Forget 9-11-2001

            Stay safe out there!

            IACOJ Member

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            • #21
              Did I read your post right Spook??? You snuck past all the security just so you could see it first hand? Does that make you cool? Was it really neat Spook??? Jeezz...

              FDNY has EVERY right to keep all but the specilized teams out. It is THEIR brothers and Sisters in the rubble! They need to deal with this loss in their way, and don't need half cocked whannabes trying to get on top of the pile so they can brag to their other whanna be's how they were there??

              The true professionals are working to try to save lives, not get their picture taken with a body part lying next to them. It's whannabes that give the Fire Service, esp the Volunteer ranks such a bad name.

              I am NOT saying all Vols are bad, just pointing out that the Vol ranks do seem to have a larger percentage of whannabes acting like idiots.

              If I misread your post Spook I apoligize, but please help me understand better what you were saying....

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              • #22
                By the way, FEMA arrived long before Saturday. The USAR Task Forces were there at least by Wednesday morning, and that contingent has a smaller response team that arrives even sooner. Perhaps the full scale FEMA stuff didn't get there, but let's not point fingers at them. FEMA is never expected to be fully operational at a disaster much before 3 or 4 days into it. Their mission isn't to be there early, they are helping pick up pieces, and give more long term support.

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                • #23
                  I am stunned by the original post. I am frustrated by the question. I am tired of the wasted time spent on this issue. It is unfair to bring this question to the forums,,especially now,,,

                  Bad timing for your retorical question, you already knew the answer... or did you?

                  Hope you aren't offended... and I say this with respect to all.

                  Proud to be a firefighter, proud to be Union.

                  FireBuzz

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                  • #24
                    THE WHOLE IAFF THING IS NOT TRUE...SINCE 5PM TUESDAY NIGHT SEVERAL DEPTS OUTSIDE NYC WENT MUTAL AID INTO FDNY AND COVERED ALOT OF THERE HOUSES...YES THE MAJORITY OF THE FF'S WORKING AT WTC WERE IAFF BUT THEY WERE ALSO FDNY GUYS...THERE WERE ALOT OF DEPTS THERE THAT WERE VOLUNTEER COMPANYS SO LETS PUT THIS WHOLE PAID AND VOLUNTEER THIS ASIDE FOR NOW AND UNITE AS 1.....

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                    • #25
                      I did not sneak passed security to be cool, to see, or anything like that. As a matter of fact I did not sneak through security at all, the post I went through greeted me very nicely.

                      I went down to the scene because of the scores of people who came back up and said that indeed, regardless of what they were telling us, help was needed at ground zero and anyone fortunate enough to get in would be a great asset, as the FDNY guys were exhausted but not giving up. Sure enough when I got down there, there was work to be done.

                      I did not mean to offend anyone by my post, nor did I mean to sound whiney by my contempt for the way FEMA went about doing business (which incidentally was pointed out to me by an NYPD officer), I was only trying to give my perspective of the time I spent in NYC.

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                      • #26
                        AMEN!!! Done with this Issue...lets put it to rest!

                        Close the topic
                        09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                        ------------------------------
                        IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                        "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                        BMI Investigator
                        ------------------------------
                        The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

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