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  • straight tip nozzles vs. tft nozzle

    your about to enter a working house fire or commercial fire.you as the officer orders your men to stretch a line..which nozzle would you perfer and why..they both have thier advantages and disadvantages..i'm just looking for some opions on them..

  • #2
    House fire? Hands down, the do it all nozzle -- the TFT or another brand automatic combination.

    Commercial fire? Most of the time, again the do it all nozzle -- a TFT.

    In very specialized situations, I might choose the smooth bore but that's more of an officer's call that he's willing to give up flexibility. Since we're "stretching" a line standpipes being full of stuff isn't a factor so we're not worried about clogging. So they main factor comes in does the slight reach advantage of a smoothbore come into play? If you have high ceilings and limited stock in the commercial occupancy, you might just have the space for the reach of a smoothbore to make a difference. Then again if I have such room to work, I'd consider pulling the 3" & master stream and doing an interior blitz.

    If the building layout, stock storage, etc is limiting you to oh, 100' or less both straight streams and solid bores will reach the fire seat.
    IACOJ Canine Officer
    20/50

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    • #3
      I prefer the TFT with LOW PRESSURE setting, they give us the combination of maximum flow (on low pressure setting they are almost comparable to smooth bores), flexibility and other options.

      Smooth bores are really great for master stream operations or low pressure standpipe or no-pump situations, but for handline interior attack on standard 1-2 story structures, I like low pressure automatics.

      One persons opinion, hope this post doesn't turn into a major flame war.
      Glenn Usdin, Fire Chief
      Lancaster Township FD, PA

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      • #4
        Chief 66

        Are you involved in nozzle sales in any way?

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        • #5
          House; 1 3/4" line w/ 15/16" SB
          Commercial; 2 1/2 line w/ 1 1/8" SB

          50 psi at the tip.

          Okay? Flame away!

          Comment


          • #6
            Dear OCA68, I am not really involved directly in nozzle sales, but I am the President of a company that has a division that sells smooth bore nozzles, fog nozzles and other appliances. We sell Akron, TFT and Elkhart. All are great products with unique features.

            All of the major manufacturers(including TFT)make smooth bore nozzles, as well as fog nozzles. So, they make money regardless of what you buy. Personally, I think they secretly are laughing at all of the controversy over smooth bore vs. fog, cause a bunch of departments change their minds every few years and decide to change nozzles back and forth, putting more money in their pockets. They benefit regardless of what you buy.

            The poster of this topic asked a direct question, and I answered it. 27 years of firefighting and I'm allowed to post my personal opinion, or so I thought.

            What's your point?
            Glenn Usdin, Fire Chief
            Lancaster Township FD, PA

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            • #7
              well you have hit on a sore spot w/ me
              the staight bore is for penetration (ie) barn fire anything that needs soaking..
              NOW the fog nozzle that is the most versitile tool while having the capability of strait streams it can protect the lineman inside....the nozzleman has control of the flow and it doesnt compromise the pattern..
              and it converts to steam faster (for us rural company's water is gold)and steam knocks down fire...and if for no other reason a fog up to the ceiling reduces the chances of a flashover faster than a straight stream so im my opinion the tft or akron automatic nozzles are the best choice
              BUT the tft works under 100psi the akron wont.

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              • #8
                TFT Midmatic or a TFT VIT nozzle with a 15/15" insert and a tip only midmatic tip. Best of both worlds in that it gives you low pressure/high volume option. Also can deliver a comparible straight stream to the 15/16" tip with the midmatic.

                Straight stream and SB are useful in way more than barn fires situations unless that is all you have is barns!
                09-11 .. 343 "All Gave Some..Some Gave ALL" God Bless..R.I.P.
                ------------------------------
                IACOJ Minister of Southern Comfort
                "Purple Hydrant" Recipient (3 Times)
                BMI Investigator
                ------------------------------
                The comments, opinions, and positions expressed here are mine. They are expressed respectfully, in the spirit of safety and progress. They do not reflect the opinions or positions of my employer or my department.

                Comment


                • #9
                  captstanm1 you are correct staight streams have more uses than barns but too many to list dont misunderstand EVERYTHING in the fire service has its uses ..i just cant get behind these companys that put the automatic nozzles in a compartment and have SB's on all the preconnects....we are not a busy company (125 calls a year) but we use automatic's and if the call was made before the roof is gone ...we can make short work of a single family dwelling...industrial well....get out all the tools in the arsenal ...im sure you will find a good use for them.......just my opinion

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                  • #10
                    "Dear OCA68, I am not really involved directly in nozzle sales, but I am the President of a company that has a division that sells smooth bore nozzles, fog nozzles and other appliances. We sell Akron, TFT and Elkhart. All are great products with unique features."

                    But you don't sell Vindicators so you choose to make unfounded claims against it in the thread - Straight Tip Nozzles vs. tft nozzles.

                    "All of the major manufacturers(including TFT)make smooth bore nozzles, as well as fog nozzles. So, they make money regardless of what you buy. Personally, I think they secretly are laughing at all of the controversy over smooth bore vs. fog, cause a bunch of departments change their minds every few years and decide to change nozzles back and forth, putting more money in their pockets. They benefit regardless of what you buy."

                    And you know as well as I do, if they are putting money in their pocket selling both, so are you, except you make more on the combination nozzles than the smooth bores. Its called profit margin!

                    "The poster of this topic asked a direct question, and I answered it. 27 years of firefighting and I'm allowed to post my personal opinion, or so I thought."

                    Absolutely you should be able to post you personal opinion, but when you state your opinion, you should be prepared to provide supporting facts for it. You make a claim about a product that you sell insinuating its better than another, and it just so happens that the other brand that you mentioned, you do not sell and have never used.

                    "What's your point?"

                    Chief, this is from the heart! I sell all brands of nozzles. I have used all brands of nozzles in both parking lot demonstrations and live fires. I can say, that even flow for flow, I have never seen any other nozzle eat fire the way the Vindicator does. With that, you should also know, First Strike, the company that makes the Vindicator, was very adamant when we got our training to sell them that the Vindicator does not replace combination nozzles. They never knocked another product in that training nor did they make any unfounded comparisons and in fact, they were able to teach me some FACTS about the other brands that I didn't know nor was ever educated on by those manufactures. The training they provide I must say was probably the best hydraulics course I have ever taken in my life. Facts that helped me sell those other brands, although most departments I do demonstrations for have chosen the Vindicators because there is no need to replace their current combination nozzles. However there is a need to provide an awesome attack nozzle that to date has worked flawlessly for us and the departments we have sold them to.
                    What do I know? I know that I don't see departments getting rid of Vindicators to go to Smooth bores or Combination nozzles.
                    I'm sorry for being long winded and I hope this doesn't turn into another Vindicator/Combination/Smooth bore war. They all have there place. It just bothers me when people who sell one brand don't expose that in their post and it bothers me even more when those posting such comments have NEVER used the very product they are knocking.
                    I like what I have learned from First Strike and appreciate the integrity they have shown. They promote education and most of all, a firm stance on "Says Who, and with What Poof", with a bottom line of "You be the Judge". I think the jury is back and the Judges are speaking and the other manufactures don't like what they are hearing.
                    If what you have is working for you then stick to it as long as you realize the importance of being open minded to progress!

                    God bless and Stay Safe

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      POOF ???

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                      • #12
                        Great another Vindicator salesman fighting nozzles on line.... A 1 3/8 tip is quiter, costs less and flows the same as does a 1 1/2" tiop. Just the facts, right???????

                        [ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: blackb16 ]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          OCA, what the f*ck? Take a chill pill.

                          There's no need to drag a fight from another thread into this one. Chief didn't say anything good or bad about the Vindicator, and really gave a fairly bland and generic opinion.
                          IACOJ Canine Officer
                          20/50

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Seems to me I've seen this debate before. Here I go again!! I would have to agree with E299lt. One thing that seems to have gotten confused though, is the terminology being used in these debates. This one is no exception. This debate is over SMOOTH BORE NOZZLES VS FOG NOZZLES, right?. All of the brand names being thrown around are simply that--brand names for FOG nozzles. Smooth bore nozzles are just that...not straight tip, solid bore ( I get a rip out of this one ) or Straight stream. The basic point being ,all fog nozzles,with the exception of the low pressure jobs , require 100psi at the tip for an adequate stream. This factor coupled with long lays of 1 3/4 hose make for excesivly high pump discharge pressures and high friction loss. The end result is that the two man hose team ( todays standard not by choice ) gets a beating. Smooth bore nozzles require 50psi at the tip less pump discharge pressure and deliver the proper GPM without beating up the hose team. In my opinion fog nozles and the steam they produce should not be used in todays hotter burning fires. Lastly in the big fire, big water issue--smooth bore 1 1/8 tips on all 2 1/2 hose is the way to go, especially in high rise applications.

                            Stay safe--BOB
                            "Never trust a smiling dog"
                            Delaware F.O.O.L. FTM-PTB-EGH

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Nice try summarizing the posts. But a Vindicator is not a fog or a smooth bore, but is really loud. Any modern combination(fog)nozzle on the market offers the same reach, flow. low pump discharge pressures and low nozzle reaction as any smooth bore on the market if the customer wants it.

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