JUNIORS FIGHTING FIRE

[AXE]

I dont think juniors should pump the trucks... OR fire fires. I started as a junior and back then played a distant role. We were allowed to hang close to the apparatus and "go fetch". We assisted loading hose, etc. Junior is a time for learning in my opinion.
For some reason our department has become lax for one of our juniors. He is allowed to fight grass fires. He is still not allowed to fight structure fires. However he has been placed on hand lines and been told to stand by (exterior). I dont think this is a good dea.
Like I said, to me , being a junior is a time for learning equipment, procedures, DISCIPLINE.
Was wondering what others thought about this.

[distchief60b]

AXE......

Dont forget where you come from....I also started as a junior at age 13. WE could do nothing but train until age 16 and then with certification of training and passing a test we could fight fire. As a junior from 13-16 we trained our butts off weekly. We also rode in pickups the fire and "fetched and rolled hose and so on...."

After 16 since we were the only ones around during the day after school...we ran all the calls and fought the fire. Now people like myself and others that started that way are leaders in the company and have moved on to carrer jobs and still volunteer.

Would you hang around and watch everyone else go out?

I agree it takes discipline...and your are so right...

But with the proper management of the program you have discipline.. Set rules about grades and behaviors and so forth and then enforce them. In Virginia the Department of Education has adopted the Department of Fire Programs firefighter and haz mat curriculum and if you are a member of a volunteer fire department in your junior and senior year you can take these classes for credit in high school. If you take both years you have Firefighter II, Haz Mat Awareness and Ops, Instructor I and EMT when you graduate. You must have the Chiefs permission and remain active in the department while in the class. Each semester we put through 15-18 students. This helps to maintain the personnel base in our county which is predominantly volunteer(660 square miles) with 13 volunteer fire departments and 3 volunteer rescue squads and supplemental paid medics during the day in certain stations. The busiest Engine in the county (no ambulances there) runs 1000 + calls/year.

The juniors in that county are very very active. The numbers fluctuate up and down but in my days as a junior we had as many as 15-16 in our department at one time. They are the backbone...and should only participate in firefighting with proper training...and that is certified/approved training.....

I totally agree...NOT AS PUMP OPERATORS!

[firecadetak]

What better learning is there than being on scene observing and hands on experience? I have been a FF Cadet for nearly two years. for the first 11 months or so, I was allowed to respond to most calls and do a decent amount of stuff. If I couldn't do anything, I would stand out of the way and observe. Now, with new SOP's, I can not go to barely any calls, (it has been nearly two months since the last call I went to) and I can rarely do anything at drill night activities and they expect me to keep both my fire and ems skills up to everybody else's level!

I have taken a class or two on pumping and try to watch and learn at calls and drills when I can, but I would never expect to be a pump operator without extensive supervision. I still realize I have a lot to learning to do.

But I still feel like I should be able to at least observe at calls.

[berger3447]

I started as a junior, too (age 16). That was the earliest anyone could join. We've since discontinued the program, have to be 18 now. I think that's a shame. We had rules about what juniors could and couldn't do, but even those rules were loosely enforced. A junior was basically the responsibility of his station officers. I wish we still had the program, and I would support allowing juniors to fight fire, because a lot of the best firefighters we have now started as juniors. It puts a lot of responsibility on the station officers, but a lot of my best memories and best learning experiences happenned while I was a junior...

[HOTDOG]

Our juniors are not allowed to pump or fight fires. They are allowed on the fire scene, provided they get there (no riding on apparatus except parades), but they can only change air bottles, help with traffic, roll hose and play fetch. We will take them inside after suppression provided the building is safe, to allow them to see what it is all about. Besides, our insurance will not allow them to fight fire or pump.

I think the junior/explorer program is an excellent way to introduce younger people into the fire service. Our dept introduces them to equipment, learn how to identify items and know their location on the rig, and to learn the basics so when they turn 18 they can have all of the basics behind them.

Oh, to answer the question, I do not think juniors should fight fire or pump. Maybe pump on a drill but not on a working fire.

[ 08-31-2001: Message edited by: HOTDOG ]

[Engine_tower1]

Axe

I take offense to your post seeing as how I am a junior memeber at my station. I have gone through the same training as you have. I started as a volunteer at the age of 16 and wasnt allowed to do anything until i recieved my certifications of FFI, FFII, Haz-Mat awareness and Haz-Mat Ops. Once i recieved these certs i was able to function as a firefighter. I am 17 now and have been in plenty of fires house and outside fires. You do learn by watching but you cant learn everything that you need to know. As you may well know training is nothing like the real thing. You only learn from experience not sitting by the truck and watching everyone else have fun and play. So what you are saying is that you would rather have some 20 yr old with no experience behind you rather than some junior with experience. I DONT THINK SO!!!!!!!

[Engine_tower1]

I do agree with your statement on pumping the engine. I wouldnt feel comfortable pumping the engine with my fellow brothers on the line. I do though have some idae of how to get the water of the engine, due to the fact that we train all of our members on every aspect of firefighting no matter whether your age is 16 or 30. Seeing as how our station runs 1000 plus fire calls (no EMS) we are keeping up with the times. If you forgot it is the year 2001 and things have changed since you were a junior now all of the young firefighters are running the calls while the older more seasoned firefighters are taking the more important roles on the scenes. They watch out for our saftey inside and outside of the structure or GRASS FIRES. I think it is time for you to take a step back and catch up with the times, plus just remember when you hear that clink clink between your legs it means I the 17yr old junior member is 50ft closer to the fire than you are.

[distchief60b]

Very nice post Engine-Tower one...and RIGHT ON TARGET

[570eck]

So I am led to believe that these jr.'s have the building knowledge to go on in as a team. They know how the buildings are built, where the fire travels, and how the building will react under a fire load. I somehow don't believe this. There is a bit more than putting water on a fire to put it out. Did you just push that fire somewhere you should not have? Stay on the outside, there is a lot to learn there first. Nobody wants to go talk to someones parents and explain why their 16 yr. old son is dead because they were put in a situation they were not ready to handle.

[firera]

Our dept. has a junior program, that works as a learning time. The juniors are 16-18 and they may train with us and run calls but as far as fighting fires it is out. Training fires are done as some nozzle experience, but no actual live fire situation. For interior attacks they must be 18 and have the proper classes. This is part of our SOG and thru this they learn and advance. Also if the junior gets all the classes done before they are 18, they still must wait until they trun 18 to be able to do interior attacks, but when the acheive this they go right into active duty when they are 18.It's not a fact of not being capable of doing the job , it is a matter of getting the necessary experience and knowledge. Even when we have an older "rookie" they aren't allowed to do anything on an attack line until they have completed the proper training and requirements.

*these are my reflections and should onyl be held to myself*

[E229Lt]

Engine_tower1 writes:

//You only learn from experience not sitting by the truck and watching everyone else have fun and play//

Guess what Sonny? As long as you think this job is "FUN AND PLAY" you belong "sitting by the truck".

[Halligan84]

I agree with Axe and E229, at 17 you should be watching, learning and doing what is needed to support the firefighters. Experience is a teacher that gives the test before the lesson. Classroom training, plenty of drill time and CONTROLLED activities on the fireground will prepare you to be a firefighter. I started as a junior too, in NJ you can not even take FF 1 until you are 18 and you have FF1 and 2 at 17? Does Virginia have child labor laws that allow a minor to wear SCBA and enter a hazardous atmosphere? What experience as a FF1 did you take into your FF2 class to build on? By the way, the guy thats 50 feet back from you may be 50 feet smarter or 50 feet more experienced.

[ShakerPinesFD]

To all the posters who say they have their FF1, FF2, Hazmat Certs. OSHA states you can not enter structure fires, don an airpak, or respond to hazmats unless your are 18 years of age. Just wondering how you guys got your certs?

[axman51]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ShakerPinesFD:
[QB]To all the posters who say they have their FF1, FF2, Hazmat Certs. OSHA states you can not enter structure fires, don an airpak, or respond to hazmats unless your are 18 years of age. Just wondering how you guys got your certs?


I would like to know where you can find these OSHA laws, if you know what your talking about then it should be no problem, I know that Ohio law prohibits anyone under 18 from Working as a firefighter or Haz mat tech, I don't have a problem with cadets responding to fires or haz-mat calls and as far as the air pack goes I think that OSHA would rather have someone under 18 put a air pack on rather than to have them screw up there lungs forever

[distchief60b]

Engine 229...570EK and Halligan....

Where did you get your start? or did one day you just become a super firefighter????

In Virginia the Attorney General's opinion allows minors under the ager of 16 to be members of a department but they are restricted to support functions in the station and not allowed to ride in any pumper or vehicle that is responding. They can train only and not allowed to participate in live burns. At 16 they can enroll in an approved firefighter class that is sanctioned by the Virginia Department of Fire Programs. During that training (Level 1, 2, Haz Mat Awareness and Operations) they do all aspects of the training and meet the NFPA requirements outlined in the "professional standards". They can not enter burning structures until they have the certification but they can enter a recognized burn training building. After they have the certification they can function on the fireground as a regular firefighter. With the required level of certification they are allowed to enter hazardous atmospheres in SCBA. In our department's case..they are not allowed to be on the Haz Mat Team... They have building construction training as any other does. Your question of "do they know how buildings are built?" is stupid. They know just as much about it as a 20 year old that just graduates from the Academy. In my son's case...probably more...since he has longed to be a firefighter for many years. The experience he takes into firefighter 2 is gained through training. People who go through recruit schools go from firefighter 1 to firefighter 2. What experience do they take with them...(are they differen? Do you tell a 20 yr old who has received a minimum passing score to stay on the "outside and learn" when he gets out of school? What about the 17 year old that scores in the upper 90% on his test? Does turning 18 make them suddenly more qualified and experienced?

Ok...maybe saying "fun and playing" was not the write words.,.....and I have cautioned him on his choice of words. He is very serious about it...and though he used those words.....he looks at it as a profession...a job....despite the fact he is volunteer.

Dont bash junior firefighters. They are the firefighters of the future. Not everyone has the luxory of fighting several working fires a day like NYFD. I respect you for that and have friends who work there.

Shakerpines....I do not think you are correct. I think OSHA says...unless you have the proper training and certifications you can not enter under 18. After 18...you can have no certifications in some departments and do anything....(except EMS).. Does an 18 year old with no certs have more qualifications than a 17 year old with all of them?

Come on guys... You are all mostly from huge fully paid departments that HATE volunteers and therefore take any chance to jam them.....

For the record: I have seen some very very excellent male and female firefighters that started as juniors. I have trained them and fought fire with them. Some of them, including my son, I would trust more than some adults. I know they are trained and I know they wanted to get the training and I know they are they to do the job...


It is almost 2002...catch up!

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: captstanm1 ]