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New Fire Fighters w/ No Training

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  • amfm
    replied
    sgtdave2002,

    All emergency operations personnel, firefighters, E.M.S. and police, must have training to the hazardous materials level that your department has determined (in writing) that they will provide to your community. Most departments will at least provide Operations Level as defined by the EPA or OSHA in 1910.120 SARA Title III.

    If this individual is not trained to this level and they are injured at the scene of an incident involving hazardous materials then your department could be in a world of s*%t. This could involve citations and fines from either of the two federal agencies listed above.

    Your municipality and officers both line and administrative could be held responsible for allowing them to participate without the required training. This is just the criminal side. There is also the civil side that may hold your officers personally liable for his injuries.

    Your department is in for a rude awakening if they don't change their training standards.

    As far as driving, that is not something that should be done by an individual that feels that he can participate in fire operations without formal training in the basics of the job.

    I understand the need for firefighters, but to sacrifice the level of training and certification necessary to do this job correctly and safely, is not right. If we, firefighters are ever to be considered professionals, career or volunteer we need to demand the most of our personnel and that begins in training.

    Just my two cents and that won't even buy one.

    Leave a comment:


  • sgtdave2002
    replied
    This was getting lost in the pile. Had to bring it back out. Please keep your comments coming. I'm keeping note.

    Thanks Guys & Gals

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    I think if he had come from another dept. and just didn't know you way, it would be a different story. BUT, with no experience at all, he shouldn't even have gear if he won't get trained.

    Leave a comment:


  • sgtdave2002
    replied
    NO_NAME_FF,

    He has no experiance at all. The closes thing he is to being a fire fighter is that he owns an old fire truck. I guess that makes him experianced huh?

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    Originally posted by sgtdave2002:
    This individual that we seem to have the most problem with thinks that he knows everything. He is also one of those people that has done and seen everything. I'm sure everybody has one of those people on there department, right?
    Did he come from another department or have any prior experience?

    Leave a comment:


  • NCRSQ751
    replied
    In my FD you don't even get equipment until after your first 90 days. You can't run calls of any kind until then either. You can't be interior until you have all your classes to qualify for that.

    We make sure people are at least trained to do support work on scenes so that new people or junior FF's can be productive on scene. After all - who do you want doing all the grunt work? Someone who could be doing other tasks or the people who are happy to do it just to be able to be there? It keeps your senior FF's available and less worn out.

    As for being bumped off a truck, we respond mostly POV with the drivers getting the truck so it's not an issue - but when we are training and it comes down to it, I'd be fine with being bumped for a senior FF. After all - if we are all truly there for the right reason - what's the difference? If you keep at it you'll be the senior one one day.

    Leave a comment:


  • sgtdave2002
    replied
    Ok, I'm going to explain a little bit about how our department is operated. We hire people off the street with zero training. The only training you have to have is dreaming to be a fire fighter. They hire these guys and gals and give them 2 years to get there mandatory training. If I remember correctly it takes about a year to get fire fighter 1, first responder ems, hazmat and incident command. They let these people wait till the last minute to start thier classes. I would think they would be pushing these people to get thier training as soon as possible. They just started a pay scale at the beginning of the year which is based on your training. I would think this would motivate these people. They dont even take the time to come up and learn how to use our equipment. They feel that our 2 trainings a month is enough. This individual that we seem to have the most problem with thinks that he knows everything. He is also one of those people that has done and seen everything. I'm sure everybody has one of those people on there department, right? Well I'm going to let you guys run with this one and add to it later. Thanks for everybodys thoughts and keep them coming.

    Leave a comment:


  • M. Daftarian
    replied
    The fire ground is not a training session folks, this is the real thing, anything short of is what we read about in the LODD. You guys that get bumped off of rigs for the guys with more experence don't take it personaly you will get your turn, hang in there
    [/QB][/QUOTE]


    LT13,

    I agree and disagree with you.

    Agree that someone with NO training shouldn't be engaging in any tac fireground ops. However, while I feel that the fireground isn't a training area per se, there is always learning going on at every fire, every time. If there isn't, something is wrong.

    Agree on the driver/operator comments of previous posters. There is more to operating apparatus than just steering the vehicle. Getting to the scene safely, knowing where/how to stage (if necessary for you to make that decision), and pump ops are just a few of the many necessary skills for drivers. A newbie without training couldn't possibly be expected to have the knowlege to accomplish all of these tasks.

    But I do believe newbies don't really get much out of being "left behind" all the time (other than, of course, if they're working dispatch, rehab ops, etc). But their experience doesn't come through book knowlege and training only (I'm referencing FFs with the minimum required training); that experience must come from the fireground. A rook won't get much out of washing trucks or rolling/cleaning hose all the time. And tthe gentleman that said to tell him "tough [email protected]#$, that's the way we do it around here; don't like it, join another dept", reflects a poor leadership attitude of the company officers. For officers: Rank is something you wear, respect is something you earn, and that's not the way to win the respect of your personnel.

    Case in point: Here in the USAF(former FF, current A-10 pilot), we have pilots with obviously varying experience in my squadron. However when we fly our missions, you could have the greenest LT flying as wingman, but the mission taskings and difficulty aren't really adjusted for his inexperience. As on the fireground, this new LT wingman will be thrown into missions where he'll probably get task saturated as hell; but will gain the necessary experience to where, over time, he doesn't get behind the power curve anymore. What kind of training would this LT get if we all just scheduled him for milk-run missions only; then were called-up for the real thing combat? What good would he (or other greenies) be at that point. Especially if we started taking casualities (shoot-downs) of the experienced pilots early in the game, what are we left with?

    Nothing is really gained from "leaving the rooks behind" and riding all your experienced people. Could the FF in question use an attitude check? I think so. But should the dept. in question review it's training policies? I think so, too.

    Mike Daftarian, 1LT, USAF
    354 FS
    Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

    [ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: M. Daftarian ]

    [ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: M. Daftarian ]

    Leave a comment:


  • Don Delancey
    replied
    Our probies dont get on a truck until they have completed ff3 up here in this dept. No exceptions! You dont train you dont ride the train its pretty simple! A warm body that has not got the proper training has no business being on the fire ground in any tactical position. The fire ground is not a training session folks, this is the real thing, anything short of is what we read about in the LODD. You guys that get bumped off of rigs for the guys with more experence don't take it personaly you will get your turn, hang in there

    Leave a comment:


  • soggybottom
    replied
    Our dept. responds to the scene in our own vehicals, while the full time officer takes the pumper. Once on the scene he decides who does what. The most experenced and trained f.f. do the interior work. The new people rack and gofor. If they dont like doing the grunt work then they have to work hard on the traing.

    Good Luck and KEEP SAFE.

    Leave a comment:


  • JackTars
    replied
    Greetings Brothers:

    Having served in paid departments I can not speak from volunteer experience but I do recall years ago we had a very basic training class, as in "This is how you spell F-I-R-E-" and I passed with a 100....just joking. Anyway we had this guy come from the Jersey Shore who was allowed to join the department sans training. A blow to morale but most importantly confidence in the FF beside you. He was well connected, this guy, and he was a disaster. As luck would have it, out of all the houses he could go to, he came to mine. So anyways it was horrible, but what could you do? Now that I think back it was unsafe both for us, him, and the community. I would not want the best firefighter in the world stepping on my rig if he didn't have training and understand his or her role. Just my 2 pennies.

    Warmest Regards,

    J

    Leave a comment:


  • BucksEng91
    replied
    It's really simple where I volunteer - no training, no ride. You have to have basic "indoc" (indoctrination) course, plus several drills with specific hydrant instruction and check-off by at least a company officer before you can even sit in the waters seat.

    I don't understand why this older gentleman is even being allowed to *think* about getting on a truck when he's obviously not motivated to train. I know we're hurting for volunteers in some areas, but you don't need this dead weight.

    Leave a comment:


  • Exp.chief51
    replied
    We don't even hire anyone unless they have at least FF1. I can understand departments with a lack of funding for training etc., but if someone doesn't have ANY training, they shouldn't be on the department, period.

    Leave a comment:


  • jedge168
    replied
    I'm sorry for having taken so long to get back with you on this, work has kept me away. My reasons are simple and are pretty much right with what 1261truckie said earlier.. I want the person with the most experience on that pump panel. My life and the lives of everyone else inside depend on him knowing what he can do. Now I know that pretty much contradicts what I said about persons with medical problems etc, but I think that people who can't fight fire for whatever reason, tend to be more attentive to pump ops, making up for that experience they didn't get goin inside. Going inside is also a reason I say this. Being inside and knowing what it's like dealing with a nozzle that the pump operator is having to feather the pressure on or whatever makes them more attentive as well. Just a personal feeling and has been also been an experience.

    Leave a comment:


  • sloepoke1
    replied
    sgtdave you allow someone to ride even though he has no training??? WHY? And please don't answer with because he is a warm body if noone else shows up. Here you don't get your gear until you have finished the minimum of twenty hours of training required by the state. Then the dept. requires more training before you can do any interior work, save for overhaul. Until you get the training required all you are allowed to do is change SCBA bottles, drag and roll hose, and generally be a "go-fer". If the "newbie" don't follow these simple rules then there is always hose that needs cleaning or trucks that needs a bath, something that keeps him/her in the house.

    Leave a comment:

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