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  • res7cue
    replied
    It's real simple, if you don't have any training, you DO NOT ride in ANY position.

    If you only want to obtain the minimum level of training that allows you to ride, then you must accept the fact that you WILL be bumped by the higher trained, more experienced F/F's.

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    OK, thanks, I understand your position better now.

    I tend to agree, with the recognition that there is always and exception to the rule.

    Around my dept., we have two guys (at least) that really stink at interior firefighting (I think it terrifies them, hard to get them in the door) but they are two of our best drivers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Davidjb
    replied
    Originally posted by no_name_FF:


    Can I ask what your reasons are for this?

    Just curious....
    On my dept. the minimum qualifications for driving the engines is 21 yrs old, drivers licsense for 2 yrs (clean for 1 yr), level 1 for 1 yr. Once they reach these qualification then they can start training on the trucks. There is absolutely no way anyone is going to drive if they don't meet these qualifications. You want a driver/Operator that knows what interior conditions are like and what happens when you run out of water for whatever reason, he/she needs to understand the importance of his job, not to mention the fact that there is a huge responsibility that goes with driving, and I personally don't want some one in that position that hasn't proven that he/she is a responsible, reliable person that can handle it, a probie hasn't been around long enough to demonstrate these traits.

    Leave a comment:


  • shoopy
    replied
    I think in a way everyone is right but doesn't your department have guidelines of what a firefighter should know and if your department doesn't what is required of your Fire Marshals Office.
    Our Department has guidelines of what has to covered and what they must demonstrate to the training committee before being allowed to do any interior work. As far as riding the first piece out that depends on the nature of the call and final decision being up to the Officer of that apparatus.
    If your department doesn't have guidelines in place work to get them there otherwise keep pi##ing him off by bumping him. Bumping has happened to just about everyone once or twice and so far no one has been killed doing so. It stinks but when you look at it from the safety of a crew he should realize it if it still happens then work the chain of command harder to implement standards.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1261Truckie
    replied
    sgtdave2002,
    Riding an apparatus to a call is a privilege granted to firefighters based on training AND experience NOT how close you live to the firehouse/firestation. Your rookie, no matter how old he is or how experienced he thinks he is, is just that A ROOKIE. Being on a first out means the personnel riding that truck have to ready, able and prepared to deal with anything. You know yourself, how many times have you thought you were going to a "nothing" call when all hell broke loose?
    If this firefighter really wants to be a firefighter, he has to learn how to be a good one. Part of that learning curve is listening to and following the directives of officers and senior members. No matter what his potential may be, you guys may want to rethink his place in your department.

    To: no_name_FF and jedge168,
    I agree with jedge168, new/inexperienced firefighters should not drive apparatus to emergency situations. When I'm in a house fire, I want the person on the pump panel to be an experienced person. The operator has to understand what's going on at and in a fire. There's more to being an operator than just driving the truck.

    Regards to all and remember "LET'S BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!"
    Jim Boyle (aka 1261Truckie)
    Captain, Porter (Texas) Fire Department

    Leave a comment:


  • PA Volunteer
    replied
    In our department, Juniors and Probies don't get on until told to by the officer. That way, you get enough/all of the qualified guys first, and then if there's an extra seat, the Junior or Probie gets on. That way, you don't have to bump them off, they just don't get on until told to.

    Stay Safe

    Leave a comment:


  • larry cook
    replied
    in our application it states that applicant has to be on probation and when joining the department he has to attend the annual municipal fire school at Texas A&M in July for live fire training. before he is voted into the department he must have a sponser from the department and some references from citizens of the community. We are forunate that every member of the department wants to attend these school. If you do not understand and go by the rules, you do not join the department. Spell it outto them before they become firefighters. we have been accused of being discrimatory, but citizens and firefighter's lives are saved by proper training. also, if a firefighter gets killed and has no training. somebody is going to pay and it may not be an insurance company.
    hope this helps. Larry

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    My favorite is turning the corner as the truck pulls out with a short crew or unqualified crew just so someone won't get bumped from the front seat.

    Leave a comment:


  • berger3447
    replied
    Yes, people have a tendency to get frustrated when they get bumped from a truck. Where I'm at, everyone's been there. Sometimes they understand the rationale, sometimes not. Others feel differently than me, but usually if I get to the station and the truck's full, I'm not going to bump anyone unless it's a truck full of rookies or something. They need the experience too, and as long as I'm comfortable with the crew, I'll let them pull. If I'm not, I'll bump 'em. They'll just have to live with that.

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    Originally posted by jedge168:
    Ok, just3 to throw my 2 cents in here. My personal feeling is that if you haven't learned to fight fire yet, he has no business operating a piece of equipment. Of course there are exceptions to this-medical problems, etc. But as a rule, if you can't fight fire, you shouldn't be driving.
    Can I ask what your reasons are for this?

    Just curious....

    Leave a comment:


  • jedge168
    replied
    Ok, just3 to throw my 2 cents in here. My personal feeling is that if you haven't learned to fight fire yet, he has no business operating a piece of equipment. Of course there are exceptions to this-medical problems, etc. But as a rule, if you can't fight fire, you shouldn't be driving.

    Leave a comment:


  • no_name_FF
    replied
    In NJ, we have regulations that say you can do X, Y & Z when you have A, B, & C training...
    So its an easier out for us. In fact, until FF1 is complete, only exterior ground participation.

    Have you considered teaching him to drive the apparatus. Nothing better than having the apparatus running and ready to go when the other FF run in.

    Leave a comment:


  • sgtdave2002
    replied
    Canman & Shawn,

    We have done the things you guys have said. When the senior fire fighter makes decisions and the officers dont agree like in this situation, we are told that we dont get paid to think or make decisions. We all agree that there is a liability and our officers say that our insurance company came out and did a risk analysis and that was not on the list of risks. What a bunch of [email protected]#!. If something does happen we cant wait to say I told you so. Pretty sad isnt it?

    Leave a comment:


  • coda0092
    replied
    also being new to the fire service i can see both sides of this coin.

    My department has a couple of different stages for new members to go thru which is clearly indicated by the helmet front... the newest guys are not allowed to be left alone doing anything...

    I can see both sides of the argument. I have the luxury of being in a house with more than one apparatus... so, i can always catch the second truck leaving the barn; but i've only been bumped once.

    I think it is important that new firefighters get to the fireground... I learned more from doing small tasks and observing at my first worker than i did in all of my drills and classroom. It is absolutely vital... I don't think that we'd want to promote people off of probation having never had experience at a worker.

    The important thing is to send that person in with someone who is more experienced and debrief after the incident is over...

    As for your guy... as long as he gets to the fireground somehow to learn, i think you are giving him the appropriate training he needs... he's just going to have to deal with not being on the first due apparatus leaving your station.

    be safe, y'all

    Leave a comment:


  • sshreves
    replied
    In our department we have the luxury of having an active training committee. I made calls to the firestation for almost 6 months before I ever got to go on a call. I didn't even get all my equipment until month 5. In the mean time I worked the radio's, filled up trucks upon return and helped service equipment.

    The liability of letting someone go out without any training is the key reason you shouldn't even put them on the truck. Manpower is important, but a untrained person can cost someone a life.

    Even though I'm new, I understood when I started that I wouldn't catch my first "ride" until the training committee "knew" I was ready. They even have been known to kick a rookie off of a truck if the primary officer doesn't think they can handle a particular situation.

    Since I was given basic training when I actually went out on a call I could perform certain task without much direction and the other firefighters could get on with the business at hand.

    These basic task included SCBA service, Getting water for those who needed it and setting up PPV fans, later I've started hooking up hydrants and even have gotten to do some cleanup in the fire scene with an experienced officer to show me what to do.

    Tell the cracker???? to watch and learn, he'll get to the heat sooner than he probably really wants to.

    Leave a comment:

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