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  • #16
    OK, thanks, I understand your position better now.

    I tend to agree, with the recognition that there is always and exception to the rule.

    Around my dept., we have two guys (at least) that really stink at interior firefighting (I think it terrifies them, hard to get them in the door) but they are two of our best drivers.
    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

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    • #17
      It's real simple, if you don't have any training, you DO NOT ride in ANY position.

      If you only want to obtain the minimum level of training that allows you to ride, then you must accept the fact that you WILL be bumped by the higher trained, more experienced F/F's.
      These views/ opinions are my own and not those of my employer/ department.

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      • #18
        sgtdave you allow someone to ride even though he has no training??? WHY? And please don't answer with because he is a warm body if noone else shows up. Here you don't get your gear until you have finished the minimum of twenty hours of training required by the state. Then the dept. requires more training before you can do any interior work, save for overhaul. Until you get the training required all you are allowed to do is change SCBA bottles, drag and roll hose, and generally be a "go-fer". If the "newbie" don't follow these simple rules then there is always hose that needs cleaning or trucks that needs a bath, something that keeps him/her in the house.
        The hardest fire to put out is the one that can be avoided by educating the public!

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        • #19
          I'm sorry for having taken so long to get back with you on this, work has kept me away. My reasons are simple and are pretty much right with what 1261truckie said earlier.. I want the person with the most experience on that pump panel. My life and the lives of everyone else inside depend on him knowing what he can do. Now I know that pretty much contradicts what I said about persons with medical problems etc, but I think that people who can't fight fire for whatever reason, tend to be more attentive to pump ops, making up for that experience they didn't get goin inside. Going inside is also a reason I say this. Being inside and knowing what it's like dealing with a nozzle that the pump operator is having to feather the pressure on or whatever makes them more attentive as well. Just a personal feeling and has been also been an experience.
          Jim Edge, Paramedic/Firefighter
          Wilmington NC
          [email protected]
          In Memory and Honor of FDNY, NYPD, and NYC EMS 9/11/01

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          • #20
            We don't even hire anyone unless they have at least FF1. I can understand departments with a lack of funding for training etc., but if someone doesn't have ANY training, they shouldn't be on the department, period.

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            • #21
              It's really simple where I volunteer - no training, no ride. You have to have basic "indoc" (indoctrination) course, plus several drills with specific hydrant instruction and check-off by at least a company officer before you can even sit in the waters seat.

              I don't understand why this older gentleman is even being allowed to *think* about getting on a truck when he's obviously not motivated to train. I know we're hurting for volunteers in some areas, but you don't need this dead weight.
              "Let's roll." - Todd Beamer, one of a group of American soldiers who handed the terrorists their first defeat.

              Joe Black

              The opinions expressed are mine and mine alone (but you can borrow them )and may not reflect those of any organization with which I am associated (but then again, they just may not be thinking clearly).

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              • #22
                Greetings Brothers:

                Having served in paid departments I can not speak from volunteer experience but I do recall years ago we had a very basic training class, as in "This is how you spell F-I-R-E-" and I passed with a 100....just joking. Anyway we had this guy come from the Jersey Shore who was allowed to join the department sans training. A blow to morale but most importantly confidence in the FF beside you. He was well connected, this guy, and he was a disaster. As luck would have it, out of all the houses he could go to, he came to mine. So anyways it was horrible, but what could you do? Now that I think back it was unsafe both for us, him, and the community. I would not want the best firefighter in the world stepping on my rig if he didn't have training and understand his or her role. Just my 2 pennies.

                Warmest Regards,

                J

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                • #23
                  Our dept. responds to the scene in our own vehicals, while the full time officer takes the pumper. Once on the scene he decides who does what. The most experenced and trained f.f. do the interior work. The new people rack and gofor. If they dont like doing the grunt work then they have to work hard on the traing.

                  Good Luck and KEEP SAFE.

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                  • #24
                    Our probies dont get on a truck until they have completed ff3 up here in this dept. No exceptions! You dont train you dont ride the train its pretty simple! A warm body that has not got the proper training has no business being on the fire ground in any tactical position. The fire ground is not a training session folks, this is the real thing, anything short of is what we read about in the LODD. You guys that get bumped off of rigs for the guys with more experence don't take it personaly you will get your turn, hang in there

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                    • #25
                      The fire ground is not a training session folks, this is the real thing, anything short of is what we read about in the LODD. You guys that get bumped off of rigs for the guys with more experence don't take it personaly you will get your turn, hang in there
                      [/QB][/QUOTE]


                      LT13,

                      I agree and disagree with you.

                      Agree that someone with NO training shouldn't be engaging in any tac fireground ops. However, while I feel that the fireground isn't a training area per se, there is always learning going on at every fire, every time. If there isn't, something is wrong.

                      Agree on the driver/operator comments of previous posters. There is more to operating apparatus than just steering the vehicle. Getting to the scene safely, knowing where/how to stage (if necessary for you to make that decision), and pump ops are just a few of the many necessary skills for drivers. A newbie without training couldn't possibly be expected to have the knowlege to accomplish all of these tasks.

                      But I do believe newbies don't really get much out of being "left behind" all the time (other than, of course, if they're working dispatch, rehab ops, etc). But their experience doesn't come through book knowlege and training only (I'm referencing FFs with the minimum required training); that experience must come from the fireground. A rook won't get much out of washing trucks or rolling/cleaning hose all the time. And tthe gentleman that said to tell him "tough [email protected]#$, that's the way we do it around here; don't like it, join another dept", reflects a poor leadership attitude of the company officers. For officers: Rank is something you wear, respect is something you earn, and that's not the way to win the respect of your personnel.

                      Case in point: Here in the USAF(former FF, current A-10 pilot), we have pilots with obviously varying experience in my squadron. However when we fly our missions, you could have the greenest LT flying as wingman, but the mission taskings and difficulty aren't really adjusted for his inexperience. As on the fireground, this new LT wingman will be thrown into missions where he'll probably get task saturated as hell; but will gain the necessary experience to where, over time, he doesn't get behind the power curve anymore. What kind of training would this LT get if we all just scheduled him for milk-run missions only; then were called-up for the real thing combat? What good would he (or other greenies) be at that point. Especially if we started taking casualities (shoot-downs) of the experienced pilots early in the game, what are we left with?

                      Nothing is really gained from "leaving the rooks behind" and riding all your experienced people. Could the FF in question use an attitude check? I think so. But should the dept. in question review it's training policies? I think so, too.

                      Mike Daftarian, 1LT, USAF
                      354 FS
                      Davis-Monthan AFB, AZ

                      [ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: M. Daftarian ]

                      [ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: M. Daftarian ]

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                      • #26
                        Ok, I'm going to explain a little bit about how our department is operated. We hire people off the street with zero training. The only training you have to have is dreaming to be a fire fighter. They hire these guys and gals and give them 2 years to get there mandatory training. If I remember correctly it takes about a year to get fire fighter 1, first responder ems, hazmat and incident command. They let these people wait till the last minute to start thier classes. I would think they would be pushing these people to get thier training as soon as possible. They just started a pay scale at the beginning of the year which is based on your training. I would think this would motivate these people. They dont even take the time to come up and learn how to use our equipment. They feel that our 2 trainings a month is enough. This individual that we seem to have the most problem with thinks that he knows everything. He is also one of those people that has done and seen everything. I'm sure everybody has one of those people on there department, right? Well I'm going to let you guys run with this one and add to it later. Thanks for everybodys thoughts and keep them coming.
                        God Help those who don't improve themselves for the betterment of those who we incharge of..

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                        • #27
                          In my FD you don't even get equipment until after your first 90 days. You can't run calls of any kind until then either. You can't be interior until you have all your classes to qualify for that.

                          We make sure people are at least trained to do support work on scenes so that new people or junior FF's can be productive on scene. After all - who do you want doing all the grunt work? Someone who could be doing other tasks or the people who are happy to do it just to be able to be there? It keeps your senior FF's available and less worn out.

                          As for being bumped off a truck, we respond mostly POV with the drivers getting the truck so it's not an issue - but when we are training and it comes down to it, I'd be fine with being bumped for a senior FF. After all - if we are all truly there for the right reason - what's the difference? If you keep at it you'll be the senior one one day.
                          Susan Lounsbury
                          Winston-Salem Rescue Squad
                          Griffith Volunteer FD

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by sgtdave2002:
                            This individual that we seem to have the most problem with thinks that he knows everything. He is also one of those people that has done and seen everything. I'm sure everybody has one of those people on there department, right?
                            Did he come from another department or have any prior experience?
                            The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              NO_NAME_FF,

                              He has no experiance at all. The closes thing he is to being a fire fighter is that he owns an old fire truck. I guess that makes him experianced huh?
                              God Help those who don't improve themselves for the betterment of those who we incharge of..

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I think if he had come from another dept. and just didn't know you way, it would be a different story. BUT, with no experience at all, he shouldn't even have gear if he won't get trained.
                                The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                                Comment

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