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  • New Fire Fighters w/ No Training

    We have about 6 new fire fighters on our department. When I say new, all of them have been on for less than a year. All but 2 of them have all there nessasary training. There is one in perticular that is older than most of the guys on the department. He has no training what so ever. He has this problem that because he is older than everybody he thinks he knows everything. He gets mad when he is bumped off a truck by someone younger and more experianced than him. We only bump him when someone with more training shows up other than that he usually gets to go. Everybody thinks he is a good guy and dont want him to take it personally, but with him not having any training he really cant do much. We try and explain our reasoning behing bumping him off but he still thinks he should be on that first due truck. What really stinks about the whole thing is he is usually the first one to the station because he only lives a block away.I want to know what other departments do with there untrained members. The other younger guys that didnt have any training didnt seem to have any problems when they got bumped. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    SGT.DAVE
    God Help those who don't improve themselves for the betterment of those who we incharge of..

  • #2
    When we get one of these whiners still whining after we tell them why they are bumped. We just look at them and say tuff s#$% that's just the way it is if you don't like it go join another dept.

    Comment


    • #3
      In our department we have the luxury of having an active training committee. I made calls to the firestation for almost 6 months before I ever got to go on a call. I didn't even get all my equipment until month 5. In the mean time I worked the radio's, filled up trucks upon return and helped service equipment.

      The liability of letting someone go out without any training is the key reason you shouldn't even put them on the truck. Manpower is important, but a untrained person can cost someone a life.

      Even though I'm new, I understood when I started that I wouldn't catch my first "ride" until the training committee "knew" I was ready. They even have been known to kick a rookie off of a truck if the primary officer doesn't think they can handle a particular situation.

      Since I was given basic training when I actually went out on a call I could perform certain task without much direction and the other firefighters could get on with the business at hand.

      These basic task included SCBA service, Getting water for those who needed it and setting up PPV fans, later I've started hooking up hydrants and even have gotten to do some cleanup in the fire scene with an experienced officer to show me what to do.

      Tell the cracker???? to watch and learn, he'll get to the heat sooner than he probably really wants to.
      Shawn Shreves
      Canyon Fire Department
      35 vols, 3 paid, ISO-3
      *********************************
      My opinion and nobody else's
      ...and well worth what you paid for it!
      *********************************

      Comment


      • #4
        also being new to the fire service i can see both sides of this coin.

        My department has a couple of different stages for new members to go thru which is clearly indicated by the helmet front... the newest guys are not allowed to be left alone doing anything...

        I can see both sides of the argument. I have the luxury of being in a house with more than one apparatus... so, i can always catch the second truck leaving the barn; but i've only been bumped once.

        I think it is important that new firefighters get to the fireground... I learned more from doing small tasks and observing at my first worker than i did in all of my drills and classroom. It is absolutely vital... I don't think that we'd want to promote people off of probation having never had experience at a worker.

        The important thing is to send that person in with someone who is more experienced and debrief after the incident is over...

        As for your guy... as long as he gets to the fireground somehow to learn, i think you are giving him the appropriate training he needs... he's just going to have to deal with not being on the first due apparatus leaving your station.

        be safe, y'all

        Comment


        • #5
          Canman & Shawn,

          We have done the things you guys have said. When the senior fire fighter makes decisions and the officers dont agree like in this situation, we are told that we dont get paid to think or make decisions. We all agree that there is a liability and our officers say that our insurance company came out and did a risk analysis and that was not on the list of risks. What a bunch of [email protected]#!. If something does happen we cant wait to say I told you so. Pretty sad isnt it?
          God Help those who don't improve themselves for the betterment of those who we incharge of..

          Comment


          • #6
            In NJ, we have regulations that say you can do X, Y & Z when you have A, B, & C training...
            So its an easier out for us. In fact, until FF1 is complete, only exterior ground participation.

            Have you considered teaching him to drive the apparatus. Nothing better than having the apparatus running and ready to go when the other FF run in.
            The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

            Comment


            • #7
              Ok, just3 to throw my 2 cents in here. My personal feeling is that if you haven't learned to fight fire yet, he has no business operating a piece of equipment. Of course there are exceptions to this-medical problems, etc. But as a rule, if you can't fight fire, you shouldn't be driving.
              Jim Edge, Paramedic/Firefighter
              Wilmington NC
              [email protected]
              In Memory and Honor of FDNY, NYPD, and NYC EMS 9/11/01

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by jedge168:
                Ok, just3 to throw my 2 cents in here. My personal feeling is that if you haven't learned to fight fire yet, he has no business operating a piece of equipment. Of course there are exceptions to this-medical problems, etc. But as a rule, if you can't fight fire, you shouldn't be driving.
                Can I ask what your reasons are for this?

                Just curious....
                The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, people have a tendency to get frustrated when they get bumped from a truck. Where I'm at, everyone's been there. Sometimes they understand the rationale, sometimes not. Others feel differently than me, but usually if I get to the station and the truck's full, I'm not going to bump anyone unless it's a truck full of rookies or something. They need the experience too, and as long as I'm comfortable with the crew, I'll let them pull. If I'm not, I'll bump 'em. They'll just have to live with that.
                  These are my opinions and not those of the organizations for which I work and/or volunteer.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My favorite is turning the corner as the truck pulls out with a short crew or unqualified crew just so someone won't get bumped from the front seat.
                    The above is MY OPINION only and not that of anyone else. I am not representing any organization in making a post here!!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      in our application it states that applicant has to be on probation and when joining the department he has to attend the annual municipal fire school at Texas A&M in July for live fire training. before he is voted into the department he must have a sponser from the department and some references from citizens of the community. We are forunate that every member of the department wants to attend these school. If you do not understand and go by the rules, you do not join the department. Spell it outto them before they become firefighters. we have been accused of being discrimatory, but citizens and firefighter's lives are saved by proper training. also, if a firefighter gets killed and has no training. somebody is going to pay and it may not be an insurance company.
                      hope this helps. Larry

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        In our department, Juniors and Probies don't get on until told to by the officer. That way, you get enough/all of the qualified guys first, and then if there's an extra seat, the Junior or Probie gets on. That way, you don't have to bump them off, they just don't get on until told to.

                        Stay Safe

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          sgtdave2002,
                          Riding an apparatus to a call is a privilege granted to firefighters based on training AND experience NOT how close you live to the firehouse/firestation. Your rookie, no matter how old he is or how experienced he thinks he is, is just that A ROOKIE. Being on a first out means the personnel riding that truck have to ready, able and prepared to deal with anything. You know yourself, how many times have you thought you were going to a "nothing" call when all hell broke loose?
                          If this firefighter really wants to be a firefighter, he has to learn how to be a good one. Part of that learning curve is listening to and following the directives of officers and senior members. No matter what his potential may be, you guys may want to rethink his place in your department.

                          To: no_name_FF and jedge168,
                          I agree with jedge168, new/inexperienced firefighters should not drive apparatus to emergency situations. When I'm in a house fire, I want the person on the pump panel to be an experienced person. The operator has to understand what's going on at and in a fire. There's more to being an operator than just driving the truck.

                          Regards to all and remember "LET'S BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!!!"
                          Jim Boyle (aka 1261Truckie)
                          Captain, Porter (Texas) Fire Department

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think in a way everyone is right but doesn't your department have guidelines of what a firefighter should know and if your department doesn't what is required of your Fire Marshals Office.
                            Our Department has guidelines of what has to covered and what they must demonstrate to the training committee before being allowed to do any interior work. As far as riding the first piece out that depends on the nature of the call and final decision being up to the Officer of that apparatus.
                            If your department doesn't have guidelines in place work to get them there otherwise keep pi##ing him off by bumping him. Bumping has happened to just about everyone once or twice and so far no one has been killed doing so. It stinks but when you look at it from the safety of a crew he should realize it if it still happens then work the chain of command harder to implement standards.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by no_name_FF:


                              Can I ask what your reasons are for this?

                              Just curious....
                              On my dept. the minimum qualifications for driving the engines is 21 yrs old, drivers licsense for 2 yrs (clean for 1 yr), level 1 for 1 yr. Once they reach these qualification then they can start training on the trucks. There is absolutely no way anyone is going to drive if they don't meet these qualifications. You want a driver/Operator that knows what interior conditions are like and what happens when you run out of water for whatever reason, he/she needs to understand the importance of his job, not to mention the fact that there is a huge responsibility that goes with driving, and I personally don't want some one in that position that hasn't proven that he/she is a responsible, reliable person that can handle it, a probie hasn't been around long enough to demonstrate these traits.
                              David Brooks,
                              Captain, NRFR
                              Newmarket Fire & Rescue
                              Newmarket, New Hampshire
                              http://www.NewmarketFire.com
                              (All opinions are my own)

                              Comment

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