Leader

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse

Firehouse.com Forum Rules & Guidelines

Forum Rules & Guidelines

Not Permitted or Tolerated:
• Advertising and/or links of commercial, for-profit websites, products, and/or services is not permitted. If you have a need to advertise on Firehouse.com please contact sales@firehouse.com
• Fighting/arguing
• Cyber-bullying
• Swearing
• Name-calling and/or personal attacks
• Spamming
• Typing in all CAPS
• “l33t speak” - Substituting characters for letters in an effort to represent a word or phrase. (example: M*****ive)
• Distribution of another person’s personal information, regardless of whether or not said information is public knowledge and whether or not an individual has permission to post said personal information
• Piracy advocation of any kind
• Racist, sexual, hate type defamatory, religious, political, or sexual commentary.
• Multiple forum accounts

Forum Posting Guidelines:

Posts must be on-topic, non-disruptive and relevant to the firefighting community. Post only in a mature and responsible way that contributes to the discussion at hand. Posting relevant information, helpful suggestions and/or constructive criticism is a great way to contribute to the community.

Post in the correct forum and have clear titles for your threads.

Please post in English or provide a translation.

There are moderators and admins who handle these forums with care, do not resort to self-help, instead please utilize the reporting option. Be mature and responsible for yourself and your posts. If you are offended by another member utilize the reporting option. All reported posts will be addressed and dealt with as deemed appropriate by Firehouse.com staff.

Firehouse.com Moderation Process:
Effective immediately, the following moderation process will take effect. User(s) whose posts are determined by Firehouse.com staff to be in violation of any of the rules above will EARN the following reprimand(s) in the moderation process:
1. An initial warning will be issued.
2. A Final Warning will be issued if a user is found to be in violation a second time.
3. A 3-day suspension will be issued if the user continues to break the forum rules.
4. A 45-day suspension will be issued if the user is found to be a habitual rule breaker.
5. Habitual rule breakers that have exhausted all of the above will receive a permanent life-time ban that will be strictly enforced. Reinstatement will not be allowed – there is no appeal process.

Subsequent accounts created in an effort to side-step the rules and moderation process are subject to automatic removal without notice. Firehouse.com reserves the right to expedite the reprimand process for any users as it is deemed necessary. Any user in the moderation process may be required to review and agree to by email the terms and conditions listed above before their account is re-instated (except for those that are banned).

Firehouse.com reserves the right to edit and/or remove any post or member, at any time, for any reason without notice. Firehouse.com also reserves the right to warn, suspend, and/or ban, any member, at any time, for any reason.

Firehouse.com values the active participation we have in our forums. Please ensure your posts are tasteful and tactful. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
See more
See less

Automatic aid agreements-Perpetuating the Bureaucracy

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Automatic aid agreements-Perpetuating the Bureaucracy

    The recent Bofer Canyon Fire would test any fire department. Wind driven flames, over open range land is hard too put out. It's hard to get out in front and stay out in front of it. I'm sure the firefighters on scene made a valiant effort. But still, more available firefighters in Kennewick could have made a difference.

    Area fire officials have started automatic aid to replace mutual aid. Mutual aid that had worked for years as a good emergency response backup between fire departments, but not automatically as a first response like it is now. This has the three cities and 5-6 area fire districts all responding as one fire force. Each Fire agency relying on the other fire departments for first response and keeping their Department?s firefighter numbers dangerously low. Robbing Peter to pay Paul makes it easy to get caught shorthanded in a major emergency, like the Bofer Canyon Fire. Kennewick Fire had 18 firefighters on duty according to reports. I assume they were all available. That's lucky because I'm pretty sure that 18 firefighters on duty includes those covering the fire medic units that are quite often out on a call, maybe even two calls. With the auto aid agreement some of these Kennewick Firefighters could have been tied up responding to another community's emergency. Lucky that they weren't. Considering that KFD covers EMS in their end of the County and firefighting in Kennewick and the other jurisdictions too; Kennewick Fire could have easily had 24 firefighters on duty that day.

    And this automatic aid is a terrible deal for all the taxpayers and even worse for some of the taxpayers. Last time I checked Kennewick and Richland Taxpayers invested the most in firefighter training effort with the State Firefighter/Fire Officer Apprenticeship Program. A program that comes with considerable cost and effort. Pasco and the local county fire districts don't go to this level of firefighter/fire officer training, last time I checked. So, the automatic aid trade-off for each other's firefighters and fire officers is not equal for all taxpayers.

    The three cities hire only immediate response pro firefighters, while the County Fire Districts operate with a few immediate response pro firefighters and mostly delayed response volunteer firefighters. So that automatic aid trade-off for each other's fire forces is again not equal. And each taxpayer group pays a different amount for their fire rescue service, making this all-for-one automatic aid fire response also not equal among all taxpayers. And in the Kennewick briefing report (TCH) I read for this Bofer fire, I saw no mention of automatic aid, only the old mutual aid.

    If the TC area Taxpayers understood the reason for and impact of this TC area auto aid fire response deal, they would want no part of it. For the reasons mentioned above for sure. But the real reason auto aid fire response is bad for taxpayers involved is because all these auto aid deals do is perpetuate the area's expensive fire administrations, perpetuate the bureaucracy. The automatic aid deal has area fire department's responding as a single fire response, with 8-9 separate and costly fire administrations. If taxpayers were given the chance to vote for a new metro fire district, a chance to vote that they were never given with this automatic aid backroom deal, the tri cities area could shed 7-8 very expensive redundant fire administrations and replace them with a single Fire Administration. This would no doubt save a few million tax dollars annually for area Fire Administration Costs, that could be used to increase the area's pro firefighter response considerably area wide. Maybe an additional 30-40 firefighters on the line area wide.
    Last edited by Bigjohn24; 09-05-2018, 10:50 AM.

  • captnjak
    replied
    Originally posted by LaFireEducator View Post
    He hasn't been back .... He must be fighting another windmill.
    Thanks for the laugh!

    Leave a comment:


  • LaFireEducator
    replied
    He hasn't been back .... He must be fighting another windmill.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    An old saw comes to mind regarding Bigjohn's mindset - "When you're a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

    Leave a comment:


  • johnsb
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
    SC?

    Have I stepped into a little peyton place of Chiefs?

    ROFLMAO

    This is what happens when you start questioning Fire Management, you get trolled.

    Have fun girls.
    You know BigJohn, the common thread in this thread is that NOBODY agrees with you.
    NOBODY.
    To an astute person that would clue them in that something is wrong with their stance on an issue....
    You base your assessment of the entire US Fire Service on YOUR LIMITED experience. See anything wrong with that???
    You should.

    Leave a comment:


  • johnsb
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
    And there are two reasons your department is involved in Auto-Aid Chief.

    Perpetuating the bureaucracy and your failure to provide fire protection in your community without outside help. Big fail if you ask me Chief.

    Now go troll someone else.
    BigJohn, you're just plain WRONG. There is only so much money that you can wring out of taxpayers. The county I live in goes from VERY high dollar real estate to rural ag. You're just NOT going to get the same money for fire protection. While my POC dept. has very nice equipment, we don't have a ladder or aerial platform, and likely never will. But fulltime FD's on either side of us do and don't hesitate to send them if we have them on our run card or ask form them.
    By your logic, every dept should have the exact same resources and a bunch of equipment, with paid firefighters.

    NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

    The BEST situation is for departments to work together well, and to have an understanding of what another departments limitations are. The fire service is not a socialist organization, everything is not going to be divided equally. Having a FAIR mutual or automatic aid pact means departments get what they need and deserve, and giving what they can without over taxing them. It has NOTHING to do with absolute equal exchange of resources and equal pay.

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by captnjak View Post

    The public doesn't care when they call 911. But they do care when this stuff comes up for a vote. They should not be allowed to vote until their house is on fire. Then we would all get the resources we need.
    BOOM! The winner of the internet today!!

    Leave a comment:


  • captnjak
    replied
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post

    In practice, it IS an automatic aid box alarm system.

    It was modelled after the Chicago Fire Department (which makes it like most big city dispatch systems).

    For an incident at a given location, appropriate units from departments X, Y, and Z will all be dispatched, based on preplanned "cards" on file at dispatch.

    It's been running that way since the 1960's.

    Dispatching in many areas follows the same format - PG County in MD being a case in point.

    When it comes right down to it - the public doesn't care who shows up at their door when they dial 9-1-1. They don't care if the tax rates aren't the same, whether the chief has one secretary or three, whether the white hats are from one department or four. They just want someone to show up and fix their problem.


    The public doesn't care when they call 911. But they do care when this stuff comes up for a vote. They should not be allowed to vote until their house is on fire. Then we would all get the resources we need.

    Leave a comment:


  • FyredUp
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post

    Sure it does troll.
    Yawn...When you can't debate or discuss with logic and facts this is your tract.
    Last edited by FyredUp; 09-09-2018, 08:28 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • FIRE117
    replied
    Before saying that one jurisdiction pays more for fire protection than another, you have to look at many factors of the tax base and the level of service of neighboring fire departments/jurisdictions.

    1. One jurisdiction may have a larger taxable valuation and the next may not.
    2. Some jurisdictions may have special hazards or situations. A major medical care facility may be in one jurisdiction and the next adjoining jurisdiction may have a chemical facility located there. The FD protecting the major medical facility may need a truck company, while the FD with the chemical facility in its jurisdiction may need a hazmat team. One FD may offer its aerial ladder on auto aid, while the adjoining FD may offer its haz mat unit on auto aid.
    3. One jurisdiction may receive funding to protect a tax exempt property (military complex, university, etc.) and the neighboring jurisdiction may not. Also, some FD's have fundraisers (donation appeal, carnival, bingo, etc.), to defray the costs of fire protection, while the neighboring one may not.
    4. One FD may receive special funding (Homeland Security funding, etc.), that the adjoining may not receive.

    Therefore, stating that one jurisdiction is subsidizing the next jurisdiction may not be true. You could actually be comparing apples to oranges. Each fire protection jurisdiction is unique in property values, hazards and revenue it receives.

    Leave a comment:


  • Too_Old
    replied
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
    When it comes right down to it - the public doesn't care who shows up at their door when they dial 9-1-1. They don't care if the tax rates aren't the same, whether the chief has one secretary or three, whether the white hats are from one department or four. They just want someone to show up and fix their problem.
    And that's the bottom line.


    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by Too_Old View Post

    Well, there is a difference when it comes to the ISO process. Resources in a automatic aid plan which arrive from an immediately adjacent territory can be counted towards your capabilities. E.g a tanker on an auto-aid run-card counts towards your water supply. A mutual aid company that has to be ordered does not provide the same level of credit.
    Very true.


    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post

    MABAS stands for MUTUAL Aid Box Alarm System, not auto aid box alarm system. Then it would be called AABAS
    In practice, it IS an automatic aid box alarm system.

    It was modelled after the Chicago Fire Department (which makes it like most big city dispatch systems).

    For an incident at a given location, appropriate units from departments X, Y, and Z will all be dispatched, based on preplanned "cards" on file at dispatch.

    It's been running that way since the 1960's.

    Dispatching in many areas follows the same format - PG County in MD being a case in point.

    When it comes right down to it - the public doesn't care who shows up at their door when they dial 9-1-1. They don't care if the tax rates aren't the same, whether the chief has one secretary or three, whether the white hats are from one department or four. They just want someone to show up and fix their problem.



    Leave a comment:


  • Too_Old
    replied
    Originally posted by tree68 View Post
    I did a little research for NY. Automatic mutual aid hasn't showed up, but mutual aid definitely does. One county's mutual aid plan includes the following:


    Automatic mutual aid is just a subset of regular mutual aid.
    Well, there is a difference when it comes to the ISO process. Resources in a automatic aid plan which arrive from an immediately adjacent territory can be counted towards your capabilities. E.g a tanker on an auto-aid run-card counts towards your water supply. A mutual aid company that has to be ordered does not provide the same level of credit.

    Leave a comment:


  • tree68
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post

    So merging instead of auto aid turns your dept into FDNY huh? ROFLMAO
    You're so focused on this redundant thing that you missed the point entirely.

    The references to FDNY serve to point out that your statement that no one needs more than one chief at an incident show that you are completely out of touch with the reality of firefighting.

    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
    Chief was directing traffic for something to do no doubt. So with autoi-aid you have plenty of Chiefs for traffic control. Quita a system you got.
    Wasn't my call - and maybe that MA chief (coulda been an assistant) was part of one of your mega departments responding mutual aid to another of your mega departments for a major incident near their shared border. I really don't recall. At what point do the mergers end? When the whole country is one big fire department?

    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
    And somebody was going to show me automatic aid in their state law, but they couldn't. Go Figure. Why don't you show us auto aid in your State Law for FD's. Everybody is doing it, it must be covered in State Law like the other ways FD's can lawfully and really join forces, including turning multiple Fire Admins into one fire admin.
    I did a little research for NY. Automatic mutual aid hasn't showed up, but mutual aid definitely does. One county's mutual aid plan includes the following:
    Each participating fire department or fire company may request assistance from another fire company or fire department pursuant to the provisions of this Plan. Requests shall take the following forms: 

    The request of a fire chief or officer in charge of any fire or other emergency. 

    The pre-planned and/or automatic pre-planned response to any building, area, or district agreed upon by all agencies involved and filed in writing at the County?s Emergency Communications Center
    Automatic mutual aid is just a subset of regular mutual aid.

    Many departments in my county have extra alarms defined (it's not universal - not all departments want to do the planning necessary to set up the extra alarms, or prefer to wait and see what they've got). Should my department's second alarm be merged in as well? The third alarm?

    There are departments that should merge - I can't deny that. There are departments whose raison d'etre expired long ago that should be merged in with someone.

    But, as I asked earlier in this post - when does it end?

    Leave a comment:

300x600 Ad Unit (In-View)

Collapse

Upper 300x250

Collapse

Taboola

Collapse

Leader

Collapse
Working...
X