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Automatic aid agreements-Perpetuating the Bureaucracy

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
    Retired Firefighter, EMT and Paramedic too, Fyrredup, didn't mean to disturb your sensibilities with this post.

    Nice Try? Not sure what that mean Just something to think about.

    You a Volunteer?
    Nice try means none of the 3 FDs I am on are even in the same county so the idea of them consolidating is ludicrous.

    I agree with Too_Old in that consolidation doesn't necessarily reduce admin positions. It may eliminate the top dog Chiefs from some departments but odds are they will be replaced with Deputy Chief or Battalion Chiefs to handle the increased admin duties. Some times consolidation is a good idea and others it is a money pit of inefficiency.


    I am a retired career Firefighter / EMT. I am a volly in the small village I live in. I am a part-time Assistant Chief of Training in one combination fire department and the Chief in another combination department. I was a tech college fire instructor for 37 years and served on other FDs to include a military CFR fire department as a civilian firefighter.
    Crazy, but that's how it goes
    Millions of people living as foes
    Maybe it's not too late
    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

    Comment


    • #17
      How was I supposed to know your situation? Lighten up fyredup, you seem tense. Just food for thought.

      But I thought you said auto aid was working for you? IF so, how would auto aid work with those great distances and multiple counties and fire agencies consolidating fire admins would not work. And my experience is limited to Washington State. Like I said, just trying to offer food for thought.

      In rural volunteer departments the highest cost is usually the fire administration.

      Now I see why you don't want to thin out fire administrations just firefighters. How many firefighters you training Chief?

      From my experience. auto-aid agreements done in backroom deals are a bad thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A good thing for perpetuating Fire Bureaucracies.. That lawful coming together of fire agencies in Washington State, under state law and voter approval, is a good thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A bad thing for perpetuating Fire Administrations.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
        I think fire admins push fire auto aid over joining forces totally, just to save their jobs.
        Around here, there are no jobs to save in that way. Even the "administrators" - the commissioners - are unpaid. Merging several fire districts would probably result in the hiring of a full-time manager in order to properly track purchasing and regulatory requirements.

        There is great disparity in the cost to the taxpayers, however. My fire district has a tax rate of around 80 cents per $1000. A district across the county is taxed at near $2.50 per thousand. Before our district was created a few years ago, my hamlet had the third highest fire tax rate in the county, which yielded just $5000 a year. It's now less than half that rate town-wide as the costs are spread across that many more properties.

        One of the largest barriers to merging here is just plain parochialism - "we" can't work with "those guys" as one department. Mutual aid "we" can handle...


        Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

        Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

        Comment


        • #19
          Thanks for sharing the info TREE

          In Washington State that is unheard of. A few remote pockets in the State with no fire protection at all, a handful of areas.

          That's the difference in States. So no money to be saved by thinning out fire admins in your neck of the woods. There is still the issue that if your auto aid agreement has multiple fire departments responding as one should have all taxpayers paying the same tax dollars, just to be fair,

          The fire district where I live has 12 pro firefighters and maybe a dozen volunteers. We have 2 chiefs ($140 K a year each), facilities director (80 K a year), a fleet director (80 K a year) 2 training officers, 3 office staff. There is money to save in Fire Amins.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
            Thanks for sharing the info TREE

            In Washington State that is unheard of. A few remote pockets in the State with no fire protection at all, a handful of areas.

            That's the difference in States. So no money to be saved by thinning out fire admins in your neck of the woods. There is still the issue that if your auto aid agreement has multiple fire departments responding as one should have all taxpayers paying the same tax dollars, just to be fair,

            The fire district where I live has 12 pro firefighters and maybe a dozen volunteers. We have 2 chiefs ($140 K a year each), facilities director (80 K a year), a fleet director (80 K a year) 2 training officers, 3 office staff. There is money to save in Fire Amins.
            Your problem isn't auto aid or mutual aid or any other aid. You are top heavy. Fleet director? (Is he/she even a mechanic or is that other additional cost?) How many vehicles are there? Facilities director? How many "facilities are there? The chiefs make good money. Why aren't they handling the facilities and the fleet and the training?
            And three office staff? For what?
            You have 21 paid people and 1/3 of them are not firefighters.

            Comment


            • #21
              Tell me about it captnjack. I retired to this area and couldn't agree more. I'm working on it. A fleet director, I hope He's a good mechanic with a big title. Facilities Director for basically 2 fire stations that are active and 2 that are storage stations.

              Top heavy for sure. I only wish we could easily combine with another fire district, but we are a ferry ride away from the mainland, allowing for limited mutual aid, but not automatic aid, Thankfully.

              I'm good with Mutual for backup between fire agencies, always have been. But automatic aid in this State is an end run around state lawful ways of bringing fire agencies together with a detailed plan approved by the voters, that turns 2 or more fire administrations into one and has all taxpayers paying the same in taxes for the same all for one fire response. Fire automatic aid does none of that, like the lawful process. Auto aid done in backroom, no vote of the people, auto aid only combines firefighting forces, not fire administrations and auto aid has all the taxpayers paying different amounts of taxes for the same all for one fire response.
              Last edited by Bigjohn24; 09-06-2018, 11:26 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Oh and I should add that we have 8-10 new part time firefighter positions. I would rather see full paid, full time firefighters when it comes to paid firefighters.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
                  How was I supposed to know your situation? Lighten up fyredup, you seem tense. Just food for thought.

                  Not tense at all. Reading what you have posted and especially the info on your ridiculously top heavy local FD I understand you more than ever. You are a retired firefighter that got his, including a pension, and probably never said boo about any of this while you were riding the gravy train but now that you are out and just a tax payer you want costs cut to save you money. You are as big an enemy to the fire service as the hack politicians.

                  But I thought you said auto aid was working for you? IF so, how would auto aid work with those great distances and multiple counties and fire agencies consolidating fire admins would not work. And my experience is limited to Washington State. Like I said, just trying to offer food for thought.

                  Each separate department has their own local auto aid. Did you not see the miles of distance between the departments. Either you are purposely being obtuse or you simply can't comprehend what I am writing.

                  Auto aid works great for all of them.


                  In rural volunteer departments the highest cost is usually the fire administration.

                  WRONG! Unless you are paying those admin as full timers. My volly FD pays its Chief $550 a year. The cost of consolidation would be more than the Chief's yearly salary. You are far too egocentric in you opinions not everywhere in the country runs things like you area.

                  Now I see why you don't want to thin out fire administrations just firefighters. How many firefighters you training Chief?

                  50. I see your top heavy FD has 2 training officers to train 24 firefighters. Remind me again who is overspending for training staff? We have a full time Chief, full time Deputy Chief, part-tine Inspection Chief, part-time Training Chief, 6 full time firefighters, 24 part-time firefighters, 20 paid on call firefighters.

                  Dude you are a hypocrite you want to call me out for being a PART-TIME Training Chief as a waste of money while your local FD is so top heavy with admin and staff that it is insane. These are your words:

                  The fire district where I live has 12 pro firefighters and maybe a dozen volunteers. We have 2 chiefs ($140 K a year each), facilities director (80 K a year), a fleet director (80 K a year) 2 training officers, 3 office staff. There is money to save in Fire Admins.





                  From my experience. auto-aid agreements done in backroom deals are a bad thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A good thing for perpetuating Fire Bureaucracies.. That lawful coming together of fire agencies in Washington State, under state law and voter approval, is a good thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A bad thing for perpetuating Fire Administrations.

                  Back room deals? Is that how Washington State works? Here they often require the local village or city council to approve them and then communication with dispatch for them to know the procedure for the auto aid dispatching.

                  With your bloated fire admin you have locally I could agree. But your trying to paint the entire country like that shows you have VERY little knowledge of the fire service outside of your area.

                  This entire topic should be addressed locally. Well unless you actually are a consultant trying to sell this plan, that sometimes works and saves money and other times leads to cost overruns and bloated admins trying to run multiple stations in multiple communities with varying needs and politics.
                  Crazy, but that's how it goes
                  Millions of people living as foes
                  Maybe it's not too late
                  To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
                    Oh and I should add that we have 8-10 new part time firefighter positions. I would rather see full paid, full time firefighters when it comes to paid firefighters.
                    You want to save money but you are opposed to part-timers. Gosh I wonder why? Most often they get no benefits and no pensions which is a cost saver. In my area part-timers are required to maintain the same level of training as full timers.

                    Simply being a full time paid firefighter does not make you a good firefighter anymore than being part time or volly makes you a bad one.
                    Crazy, but that's how it goes
                    Millions of people living as foes
                    Maybe it's not too late
                    To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Have fun Chief. I thought I was a consultant according to you? You confused much? They don't have a Fire Chiefs' forum?

                      I don't like having firefighter EMT's that are trained to the same level doing the same work side by side, one for half the hourly wage of the other. Rubs me wrong. And they can't be called back for major emergencies because of part time hours restrictions.

                      I think it is even easier saving money by joining forces lawfully and merging fire administrations, not just merging the firefighters through auto aid.

                      I totally respect volunteer firefighters doing the job for next to nothing, helping out their community.

                      I bet you are OK with getting by on the cheap Chief, whatever it takes. You don't get paid in your Chief Jobs?

                      I know you are OK with perpetuating the bureaucracy, you are the bureaucracy.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Yeah backroom deals by city councils and fire commissioners that are done quietly and in house, barely if at all letting the public know, if they follow the city council or fire commissioner meetings. And we all know those meetings are packed with interested citizens. NOT!

                        And I expressly stated this is my experience in Washington State. You will not find one $550 a year Fire Chief in Washington State. You must live in the boonies.

                        If auto aid works at great distances so would combining forces.

                        Im working on the top heavy local FD that I moved into in my retirement.

                        From my experience. auto-aid agreements done in backroom deals are a bad thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A good thing for perpetuating Fire Bureaucracies.. That lawful coming together of fire agencies in Washington State, under state law and voter approval, is a good thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A bad thing for perpetuating Fire Administrations.

                        I agree it's a local issue. How does that preclude us from discussing it on this forum?

                        Unless you are all about perpetuating bureaucracy. You should take a chill pill fyredup, it will be OK.
                        Last edited by Bigjohn24; 09-06-2018, 12:00 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
                          Yeah backroom deals by city councils and fire commissioners that are done quietly pin house, barely if at all letting the public know, if they follow the city council or fire commissioner meetings. And we all know those meetings are packed with interested citizens. NOT!

                          And I expressly stated this is my experience in Washington State. You will not find one $550 a year Fire Chief in Washington State. You must live in the boonies.

                          My small town volly FD is in the boonies, but then again so are many around here. There are still some volly FDs that don't pay ANYTHING for any position. Again why I said YOUR bloated admin is not necessarily the national average among all FDs.

                          If auto aid works at great distances so would combining forces.

                          Okay that answers the question I posed above you are just being an argumentative obtuse azz.

                          Im working on the top heavy local FD that I moved into in my retirement.

                          So then why go international with it? Are you so insecure with your beliefs that you needed people here to tell you you were right?

                          From my experience. auto-aid agreements done in backroom deals are a bad thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A good thing for perpetuating Fire Bureaucracies.. That lawful coming together of fire agencies in Washington State, under state law and voter approval, is a good thing for firefighters and taxpayers; A bad thing for perpetuating Fire Administrations.

                          Again your broad stroke statements show an egocentric attitude that everyone is like your area. Sorry no.

                          I agree it's a local issue. How does that preclude us from discussing it on this forum?

                          You are pontificating and using circular arguments to disagree with anything anyone else posts. You have purposely convoluted what I have said to serve your own purposes despite my explanations.

                          Unless you are all about perpetuating bureaucracy. You should take a chill pill fyredup, it will be OK.

                          Dude I am chill. I just am tired of people like you coming on here pretending to care about anything but their taxes.
                          You claim to want cost savings yet are opposed to using equally qualified part-timers. You want to lecture others on top heavy admin when your local FD is so top heavy I am surprised the fire station hasn't tipped over. 3 office staff for a department of less than 30 firefighters? Geezus my career FD had 1 full time and one 1/2 time office person for a department of 105 firefighters.
                          Crazy, but that's how it goes
                          Millions of people living as foes
                          Maybe it's not too late
                          To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Bigjohn24;n2096106]Have fun Chief. I thought I was a consultant according to you? You confused much? They don't have a Fire Chiefs' forum?

                            I don't like having firefighter EMT's that are trained to the same level doing the same work side by side, one for half the hourly wage of the other. Rubs me wrong. And they can't be called back for major emergencies because of part time hours restrictions.

                            Works well here to augment staffing.

                            I think it is even easier saving money by joining forces lawfully and merging fire administrations, not just merging the firefighters through auto aid."

                            Your opinion. Sometimes it works and others it doesn't.

                            I totally respect volunteer firefighters doing the job for next to nothing, helping out their community.

                            Unless they are protecting you?

                            I bet you are OK with getting by on the cheap Chief, whatever it takes. You don't get paid in your Chief Jobs?

                            Um, listen hero, your idea is to get the entire fire service to get by on the cheap. Maybe you aren't smart enough to see you are chasing your own tail with this idiotic statement.

                            I know you are OK with perpetuating the bureaucracy, you are the bureaucracy.

                            Yeah I'm the bureaucracy. Both of my jobs are part-time, one 36 hours or less a week and the other 20 hours a week. Yes I am paid, no benefits, no vacation, and I am a working chief if I am on duty and we get a call I am going. Yeah I am a HUGE example of your bloated FDs admin.

                            GEEZUS you are either a troll or an idiot.
                            Crazy, but that's how it goes
                            Millions of people living as foes
                            Maybe it's not too late
                            To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Then why are you trolling me Chief?

                              Have a nice day idiot!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bigjohn24 View Post
                                Then why are you trolling me Chief?

                                Have a nice day idiot!
                                I'm not trolling you in the least.

                                Its actually kind of fun watching you contradict yourself over and over.
                                Crazy, but that's how it goes
                                Millions of people living as foes
                                Maybe it's not too late
                                To learn how to love, and forget how to hate

                                Comment

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