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  • #16
    I agree with just about everything you just said, the whole gun situation is completely dynamic and I get it if your hit then your hit. And yes cautious aggression is a thing, so is defensive aggression both can be very useful.
    We train to work as a group, tactical extrication from hot zones that have been cleared. Control life threatening hemorrhaging via tourniquet or quikclot or both and move to cold zone for transport. It's a fked situation with no real answers

    Got another question for you unrelated to this, how do you feel about body cams? Their has been talk of the officers wearing body cams to certain types of calls psych, combative pt, law enforcement assist, ect.
    My concern is that it could become general use and be used against us last ke you should have done this on that medical ect.
    Get the first line into operation.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
      Got another question for you unrelated to this, how do you feel about body cams? Their has been talk of the officers wearing body cams to certain types of calls psych, combative pt, law enforcement assist, ect.
      My concern is that it could become general use and be used against us last ke you should have done this on that medical ect.
      If experience from the police side is any guidance, body cam footage will exonerate 10 EMT/medics facing false claims of misconduct for every one case where the footage is used to incriminate them.

      I see lots of potential issues regarding patient privacy. The relationship between a cop and' a 'customer' is different from that between emergency medical provider and patient.
      Last edited by Too_Old; 07-05-2018, 05:45 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        I agree that the bodycam thing could present privacy challenges for fire/EMS.

        I've always felt in general that bodycams would be a good thing for Police the majority of the time.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
          Got another question for you unrelated to this, how do you feel about body cams? Their has been talk of the officers wearing body cams to certain types of calls psych, combative pt, law enforcement assist, etc.
          My concern is that it could become general use and be used against us last ke you should have done this on that medical etc.
          I can see body cams having a beneficial effect on patient care, as EMTs/medics would know that their actions could be reviewed with a near zero "he said/she said" factor. If they are in the habit of taking shortcuts, etc, it would rapidly become evident.

          As noted, they could protect the medic, especially in male provider/female patient situations. This could both be reactive (after an accusation is made), or proactive (the potential accuser knows the whole incident is being recorded, so false claims wouldn't go far).

          We talk a lot about QA - this could (note I said could) be a useful tool to correct patient care issues that are unintentional, too. And (within privacy considerations) be a useful teaching tool.

          But, there is the whole privacy issue, and a very tight accountability policy would be necessary - we don't need a "ten worst patients" video showing up on YouTube...

          Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

          Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by L-Webb View Post
            It would not help, but I fail to see where a responsible Dept who's members have qualified the same as leo and has support of Chief is a bad thing. This is concealed not open

            Alright I'll ask you a question if someone shows up and starts blowing away kids at school and your people have the ability to carry LEGALLY. After pd goes in are you going to push the curve and try to save some that may be savable with immediate intervention or are you going to be blocks away behind the fire truck for 30 minutes like happens most of the time.
            Not in this town.
            I think the best security is situational awareness. Head on a swivel and be alert. If it starts going sideways, get out. Most of our guys would go in to a hot situation and not think twice about it, if it meant helping a kid.

            Most of our guys carry all day everyday. We also usually respond in POVs. My car is stocked pretty well, and all of us that carry, train. My goal is to get everyone home safe, but I cant do much dead. Therefore, anyone who presents a deadly threat is dealt with. Hopefully it can be resolved without shots fired, but at the end of the day, my goal is to go home along with everyone else.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by JSJJ388 View Post

              I think the best security is situational awareness. Head on a swivel and be alert. If it starts going sideways, get out. Most of our guys would go in to a hot situation and not think twice about it, if it meant helping a kid.

              Most of our guys carry all day everyday. We also usually respond in POVs. My car is stocked pretty well, and all of us that carry, train. My goal is to get everyone home safe, but I cant do much dead. Therefore, anyone who presents a deadly threat is dealt with. Hopefully it can be resolved without shots fired, but at the end of the day, my goal is to go home along with everyone else.
              "...all of us that carry, train."

              Train how exactly? Train with law enforcement? Train with each other? Go to the range? What exactly do you mean and how exactly will this make you an asset versus a liability in an ongoing police action with an active shooter?

              First you say you will get out. Then you say a deadly threat will be dealt with. Which is it?

              I am not against your carrying. I do not doubt that a situation could conceivably develop wherein you would be the one and only guy with a real chance to alter the scene's trajectory. But I also think it is way more likely that non law enforcement personnel engaging in a shootout with an active shooter will end badly for someone other than the perpetrator.

              I hear a lot of tough sounding talk from guys who sometimes don't seem fully aware of the consequences of their actions. Have you consulted with local law enforcement? What did they say?

              Comment


              • #22
                Very skeptical of carrying while "on duty" (in any manner). In a slightly different scenario, our personnel have been told by the State AG's office that we cannot require a person to hand over a firearm or refuse them medical care or transport because in carrying out our duties we are "agents of the government" and must follow the laws that pertain to government employees, like not violate a persons 2nd Amendment Rights. An extrapolation of that same thought could be used to show you were "carrying on duty" and therefore subject to the same requirements of any government employee that carries a firearm "on duty".
                I totally understand no one is more responsible for my own safety and carry myself, but never on duty. Way too many variables and scenarios that could lead the wrong way.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by RFDACM02 View Post
                  Very skeptical of carrying while "on duty" (in any manner). In a slightly different scenario, our personnel have been told by the State AG's office that we cannot require a person to hand over a firearm or refuse them medical care or transport because in carrying out our duties we are "agents of the government" and must follow the laws that pertain to government employees, like not violate a persons 2nd Amendment Rights. An extrapolation of that same thought could be used to show you were "carrying on duty" and therefore subject to the same requirements of any government employee that carries a firearm "on duty".
                  I totally understand no one is more responsible for my own safety and carry myself, but never on duty. Way too many variables and scenarios that could lead the wrong way.
                  I would imagine there are a lot of legalities that are not fully understood by those who carry on duty. In many states one could do the "right thing" and end up in serious legal trouble for doing so. And that is without making a serious mistake. Do that and you could really be screwed. I think many municipalities are just getting up to speed as far as active shooter policies go. I expect many will disallow on duty members from carrying. Carer and volunteer.

                  Once you carry you are likely responsible to the same level as law enforcement when it comes to rules of engagement. You are not "Joe Citizen" once you show up as part of an FD response.

                  What happens when a well meaning off-duty cop shows up and you start shooting at each other?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by captnjak View Post

                    "...all of us that carry, train."

                    Train how exactly? Train with law enforcement? Train with each other? Go to the range? What exactly do you mean and how exactly will this make you an asset versus a liability in an ongoing police action with an active shooter?

                    First you say you will get out. Then you say a deadly threat will be dealt with. Which is it?

                    I am not against your carrying. I do not doubt that a situation could conceivably develop wherein you would be the one and only guy with a real chance to alter the scene's trajectory. But I also think it is way more likely that non law enforcement personnel engaging in a shootout with an active shooter will end badly for someone other than the perpetrator.

                    I hear a lot of tough sounding talk from guys who sometimes don't seem fully aware of the consequences of their actions. Have you consulted with local law enforcement? What did they say?
                    Cant speak for every last one, but I have done simulator training and shoot/no shoot drills with a few of the guys. Its a small community and tight knit. Most of my shoot/no shoot training is simulator as well as some active shooter drills.

                    Same as any other time. Get out if I can, defend myself by any means necessary if I cant. I dont think any CHP holder in their right mind WANTS to shoot someone, but we are ready if we have to. I pray daily that I never need my weapon, but that I am ready if I ever do.

                    I dont claim to know every in and out of the law, but I do feel that I have a good grasp on the dos and donts. If my life or someone elses is not in immediate grave danger, Im not drawing. If you shoot, count on going to jail. At the very least until things get sorted out.

                    Law enforcement is stretched thin in our little rural town. They are just glad to know we have their backs. I think we would all prefer to never have a situation that requires violence of any kind, but there is a good chance we will have that sort of situation. I think we would all rather leave it to the LEOs, but the reality is that they are stretched thin and could be a few minutes before they get there.

                    Like I said, nobody that carries WANTS to kill someone, but we try to be as ready as we can should we have to defend ourselves.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      There is NOT a "good chance" that you will have such a situation. The odds are enormously against it ever happening in any given town. The fact that you think that way is a little unsettling. You already have the wrong mindset for this stuff.

                      Your "shoot no shoot drills with a few of the guys" is really inadequate. What you need is formal inter-agency training on all aspects of such an incident. Anything less is just a crapshoot.

                      If you enter such a scene, where is the gun? In your hand? How do you provide the medical treatment you are there to provide? One handed? How do you remove a victim? Or are you there to confront the shooter and medical aspects be damned?

                      When law enforcement shows up and sees a guy with a gun (often in civilian attire) what will their response be? Will they immediately know you are there to "have their backs"? or will they shoot you? I'd say it's about 50-50.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by captnjak View Post
                        One last thing. Legally owning and carrying a gun is a long way off from being ready and able to operate successfully in a situation like this. The guys who do it professionally will tell you that assuming they've ever faced it themselves.
                        Many police departments are now taking the same course as EMS - using situation-based training (vs good ol' time on the range, or in the case of EMS, rote regurgitation of procedure). This is generally done using a specialized trainer which presents them with real-life situations in real time.
                        Opinions my own. Standard disclaimers apply.

                        Everyone goes home. Safety begins with you.

                        Comment

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